Recap #21: Golden State Warriors 106, Sacramento Kings 114 - Rotation Sensation? Meh, We'll See...
For the second time this week the Warriors faced off with their Nor-Cal rivals(?) the Sacramento Kings, and for the second time this week the fate of the team was in the hands of the second unit, while the starters looked on from the bench in the fourth quarter. The subs came through again making up for a poor third quarter from the starters with a fourth quarter push to force overtime. Unfortunately, by riding the second unit hard in the fourth and leaving the starters to get cold and stiff on the bench Coach Jackson had painted himself into somewhat of a corner when faced with an overtime period. The team fell apart in OT and the Kings walked away with the crown in the intense battle of the irrelevant NBA franchises in northern California. Hit the jump for a big picture breakdown of this game, and a look at Mark Jackson's handling of the rotations.
So... What Happened?
Well, it's pretty simple. You can get a fairly clear picture of the game by looking at a few key factors.
- Rebounding: 55-36 Kings. The Warriors were once again crushed on the boards, and gave up 20 offensive rebounds.
- Turnovers: 18-16 Warriors. As we saw on Tuesday night, when you give up extra possessions by allowing offensive rebounds you have to find away to earn those possessions back or you dig a very deep hole for yourself. Unfortunately for the Dubs they only won the turnover battle by a slim margin this time around, and they allowed the Kings to run Warriors give-aways back on them with incredible efficiency.
- Three point shooting: Well, if the Kings killed the Warriors on the glass, and didn't allow the Warriors an effective advantage in the turnover game, how did the Warriors hang in there? They shot 16-29 (55.2%) from beyond the arc. When you get consistently beat up inside and out-rebounded you need to find a way to make up for it, and the Warriors have come to rely on their outside shooting to keep them in games. The way the team is built, frankly, it's a necessity if they want to be successful.
A Tale of Two Teams: Warriors Starters vs. Warriors Bench
As the season goes on, a strange trend is forming when it comes to Coach Mark Jackson's handling of the bench. It's basically all, or nothing. He has two units, and when one isn't performing he puts in the other. I can certainly understand that from time to time a coach needs to make a statement about the poor play of his starters, and he will bench the entire unit and leave the game in the hands of the subs. This can be a good motivator for the starters, and a good confidence boost for the bench, but it's starting to look like less of a motivational tool, and more of a crutch for Jackson.
Reporter: Why have you only been using your roster as two completely separate units?
Mark Jackson : I think I was trying to suggest something about the duality of man, sir.
Reporter : The what?
Mark Jackson: The duality of man. The Jungian thing, sir.
/fictional press conference
The two units have some pretty well defined strengths and weaknesses, but instead of using the coaching tool of the substitution like a surgeon's knife, blending players to find the perfect mix for the situation, he wields it like a blunt object removing any of the nuances that often lead to wins. If he continues to use the bench unit as a late game life-saver it won't take long for the shine to wear off. A lot like backup quarterbacks, NBA subs may look like an attractive option, but if you give them enough playing time they usually remind you why they were on the bench in the first place.
Klay Thompson
I could easily give this to the entire bench unit again, but I'd rather highlight Klay "The Kloser" Thompson's excellent late game play on both sides of the court. Great shooting, and effective defense from Klay when it counted.
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I wonder how much Dorell Wright is worth
It seems like if it’s not Monta, then Dorell is most likely to be traded. He becomes a FA after next year and could help a contending team because he can hit the three a lot.
If you're watching a blowout, you can pass the time by counting the double teapots.
Samurai Champloo > Macross
I gif stuff
Don't believe everything you read on the internet - Abraham Lincoln
he's not worth that much
J-RIDAH: Its not 1 player in this draft better than Monta or Lee. Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu. Andre Drummond could be good but he is not impressive at this point at all besides his size. This draft is hella overated.
(JaVale) Mcgee is better than anybody in this draft.
He’s not particularly inefficient. His ts% the last three seasons (including this one) have been .567, .539, .571. Plus, he’s a decent rebounder, solid defender, and takes care of the ball. I think most teams would love to have him as a 6th or 7th man, particularly given the bargain-basement contract.
There will be no extra point!
dinohealth doesn't understand what efficiency is
"Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu." - J--Ridah
Me: So who (from the 2011 draft class) compares with (Anthony) Davis?
J-Ridah: Biyombo
I might be wrong
But I always identified a 6th man as a player who can change the pace of the game, give the team a spark, and create offense. Jason Terry, Leandro Barbosa, Jamal Crawford, Bobby Jackson farther back the microwave. In most cases, high profile 6th men, tend to play starters minute, and put up starters numbers. Just for rotation purposes they preferred them off the bench.
In my opinion, Dorell possesses none of these characteristics, not least of which is creating his own shot.
I don't mind him as a starter
His minutes just need to be in the 20-30 mpg range, regardless of which unit he’s in. He does a lot of things well, but nothing exception.
Also, it seems when he plays less minutes, he plays harder, focus’ more on little things, like all players tend to do.
If I could, I’d suggest our perimeter rotation be-
Curry- 35, Monta- 33, Nate- 15, Klay- 13, Dorell- 24, Rush- 24. Something in that realm, with hot players getting a bit more time.
His value to the team and in a trade are almost identical
Which is nice. One of few players like that on this roster.
I don’t dislike him, he might be a filler of a guy on a reasonable deal who’s relatively young who a team could use. At same time, he’s useful to us too.
I agree that Mark Jackson needs to have an actual rotation
Not two teams. But he’s new to the coaching thing so we should give it time. He’s learning on the fly, you know. It’ll probably take some time before he learns to set the correct rotations and other things.
If you're watching a blowout, you can pass the time by counting the double teapots.
Samurai Champloo > Macross
I gif stuff
Don't believe everything you read on the internet - Abraham Lincoln
We were doing just fine until Nate Robinson got hurt, and Jackson subbed in Curry and Ellis. I’m really sick of our starting guards’ lack of defense and effort on that end. If you don’t have guards that can play defense, then you don’t have a defense.
Mmm...
I think “doing just fine” is a bit of a stretch. It took some serious effort and late game heroics to even make it to overtime, and you can’t expect your second unit to continue to have success against the other team’s starters indefinitely. I don’t want to be too harsh, because I really do appreciate what our subs bring to the table, but how good can they be if they aren’t even good enough to start for the Warriors?
I’m curious, does anyone here think that any of the bench players are clearly better than their first unit counterparts? I could probably make a case for Rush or Udoh, but I’m not sure how strong it would be. I’d love to think that Klay is on his way to becoming a good player on both ends that, while lacking the flash, could possibly help this team more than Monta, but that’s a pretty huge stretch at this point in his young career.
I tend to think that the longer you leave these guys out there without mixing in any starters the more chance that they are exposed. They get by on active defense and hustle, but you can’t count on that holding up for more than 10-12 minutes at a time.
I tend to think that the longer you leave these guys out there without mixing in any starters the more chance that they are exposed.
exactly, they can come in and put some wear and tear on the other team with all out hustling but as soon as they lose their edge they are done.Lots of players can play a few minutes at top speed but few can play long minutes at starter level. The coach’s job is to sort them out into long minute and short minute players with some consistency of usage..
Mirror on the wall
Here we are again.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 5, 2012 9:02 PM PST up reply actions
I think it is part of why Lacob should not have hired Jackson. His lack of coaching experience is showing.
Jackson is a good motivator and I like how he treats players, but he needs help with his rotation from other coaches. I think our bench is good against other team’s benches, but they would not be as good if promoted to starter. I realized there are certain players that are good coming off the bench, e.g. James Harden, Jason Terry, and OJ Mayo. I think we have to improve the front court first and maybe would have to decide on which back court player to trade afterward.
"Go ahead. Make my day."
Cant bench starters so quickly
They have talent. It’s Mark Jackson’s job to make them mesh together. They are the foundation of the team. He has to keep starting them until management decides to trade them. Can’t sit these players, management paid too much money for them to come off the bench. I think that’s why beans is still out there starting.
. I’d love to think that Klay is on his way to becoming a good player on both ends that, while lacking the flash, could possibly help this team more than Monta, but that’s a pretty huge stretch at this point in his young career.
Team defense goes a long way. I think Klay’s easy to hide defensively with Rush, Udoh, MacGuire, Nate who are all aggressive. At same time, when Monta and Lee played in this lineup, it’s been same thing.
I think we do need to consider moving Rush and Udoh with first unit. However, then our second unit starts to lack it’s defensive presense.
Chicago does pretty well with this kind of bench rotation
J-RIDAH: Its not 1 player in this draft better than Monta or Lee. Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu. Andre Drummond could be good but he is not impressive at this point at all besides his size. This draft is hella overated.
(JaVale) Mcgee is better than anybody in this draft.
We're not Chicago
Most teams have a rotation. Just because it works for Chicago does not mean it will work for us.
If you're watching a blowout, you can pass the time by counting the double teapots.
Samurai Champloo > Macross
I gif stuff
Don't believe everything you read on the internet - Abraham Lincoln
Just because it works for Chicago does not mean it will work for us.
Except it is working for us. That unit is our best unit right now.
J-RIDAH: Its not 1 player in this draft better than Monta or Lee. Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu. Andre Drummond could be good but he is not impressive at this point at all besides his size. This draft is hella overated.
(JaVale) Mcgee is better than anybody in this draft.
by Evanz on Feb 6, 2012 3:58 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I've been impressed how much Jackson plays the numbers
He clearly relies on his assistants a lot for scouting reports and percentages. But he’s very open minded and tends to play them. The hack-a-howard/hack-a-deandre were both the correct decision, especially without Kwame who was our only player who might be able to hold Howard to his season fg%.
Jackson’s clearly green, but he shows a very open minded approach, which is great. Nothing worse than a stubborn coach going off his gut.
So you don't think Klay or Udoh should get worked into the starting lineup?
Because that’s what I think should happen. Let Klay or Udoh play with the starters, against other NBA starters
If you're watching a blowout, you can pass the time by counting the double teapots.
Samurai Champloo > Macross
I gif stuff
Don't believe everything you read on the internet - Abraham Lincoln
by doubleteapot on Feb 6, 2012 12:03 PM PST up reply actions
I mean if it were up to me
my starters would be Curry/Klay/Rush/Lee/Udoh (except against “big” centers)
and bench would be Nate/Monta/Wright/McGuire/Biedrins
but who cares what I think?
J-RIDAH: Its not 1 player in this draft better than Monta or Lee. Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu. Andre Drummond could be good but he is not impressive at this point at all besides his size. This draft is hella overated.
(JaVale) Mcgee is better than anybody in this draft.
You think?
If you look at our five man units, the second most used unit has zero starters in it. Zero. You have to go pretty far down the list to find a Chicago unit without a single starter. Far enough that I gave up and stopped looking before I found one.
I’d probably bet money (not that much money though, haha) that we are the only team in the league who can say their second most used five man unit has zero starters.
It's not that far down
Lucas, John – Brewer, Ronnie – Korver, Kyle – Gibson, Taj – Asik, Omer (unit)
23.80 minutes total together
But I agree with you, it is crazy how much our second unit is playing together (or how good it is compared to the first unit, which is just sad)
If you're watching a blowout, you can pass the time by counting the double teapots.
Samurai Champloo > Macross
I gif stuff
Don't believe everything you read on the internet - Abraham Lincoln
I'm not sure I'd count that...
Brewer has started most of their games. Even if you do count it though, that was 9th on the list with only 25 minutes according to 82games, not anything like our situation. I think you’ll find that even teams that use those sort of platoon style substitutions aren’t nearly as extreme as the Warriors have been.
Whoops I copied the wrong line
Watson, C.J. – Korver, Kyle – Butler, Jimmy – Gibson, Taj – Asik, Omer (unit)
23.80 minutes
If you're watching a blowout, you can pass the time by counting the double teapots.
Samurai Champloo > Macross
I gif stuff
Don't believe everything you read on the internet - Abraham Lincoln
If you look at our five man units, the second most used unit has zero starters in it
Look at the +/- for that unit! It’s +16 last I looked. Better than the starters.
J-RIDAH: Its not 1 player in this draft better than Monta or Lee. Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu. Andre Drummond could be good but he is not impressive at this point at all besides his size. This draft is hella overated.
(JaVale) Mcgee is better than anybody in this draft.
That's obviously misleading...
…as the bench unit plays the vast majority of their minutes against other bench units. Our bench competes against the other team’s bench better than our starters do against the other team’s starters, but to say “this is our best line-up” seems a bit disingenuous.
The two games against Sac were nice, but I think you’d find a pretty aggressive regression to the mean if you were to give our bench starter’s minutes consistently.
by warriorsablaze on Feb 6, 2012 11:06 AM PST up reply actions
…as the bench unit plays the vast majority of their minutes against other bench units.
I’m citing Adjusted +/- which accounts for that.
J-RIDAH: Its not 1 player in this draft better than Monta or Lee. Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu. Andre Drummond could be good but he is not impressive at this point at all besides his size. This draft is hella overated.
(JaVale) Mcgee is better than anybody in this draft.
Should be mentioned that in this game the bench was playing against starters who all played around 40 minutes. Fresh legs are a definite edge.
Over
by cybermaldonado on Feb 6, 2012 4:00 PM PST up reply actions
Don't get me wrong...
I’m not arguing that the second unit hasn’t been effective, because clearly they have. Basically my points are these:
1. Jackson’s use of the bench is extreme, and unusual for an NBA coach. (Not that there is anything inherently wrong with that)
2. I believe that over time the bench will prove to be less effective if he continues to use them this way, and it will also have a negative effect on the starters. I could end up being totally wrong, but I think he will need to take a more nuanced approach to his rotations as the season goes on. He may be missing out on more effective line-ups that better blend offense and defense, while allowing a more consistent and sustained level of activity over the course of the whole game.
That picture of Curry says it all
No article need follow.
by picknpop on Feb 5, 2012 7:59 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Yep, good leadership qualities right there.
"If God made us in his image then he must be dumb too, and a little ugly on the side."
Frank Zappa
by qin on Feb 6, 2012 8:21 AM PST up reply actions
What "leader"...
… can you cite who has NEVER shown frustration?
by warriorsablaze on Feb 6, 2012 11:07 AM PST up reply actions
Stop making lame excuses for Curry.
With all due respect, I am a Analyst Hall of Fame candidate. If you are offended by my comment, I did write "With all due respect".
by KillaContract on Feb 6, 2012 11:32 AM PST up reply actions
There are different ways of showing frustration.
I guess a pouty boo-boo face is one of them..
"If God made us in his image then he must be dumb too, and a little ugly on the side."
Frank Zappa
by qin on Feb 6, 2012 12:11 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Oh and you are right
Klay did great. I hope that he can keep it up. I feel like it must be frustrating to play on a struggling team when you are just beginning as a rookie.
Rebound cost us this game
When we are up 2 points we could have seal the game if we grab those defensive rebound.
Win Or Lose Warriors For Life.........
mykelala01 is like the bouncer with the red rope for GSOM. You’re good to come in now.
by TheSoundOfHockey on Apr 24, 2011 9:24 PM PDT
We got a very explosive bench
We simply need more scoring from our center and our rebounding HAS to improve.
GSW '12 CHAMPS!
does the rookie coach have a penchant for extreme tactics ?
what if he needs, subconsciously if not deliberately, to call attention to his coaching ? Is he trying a bit too hard to prove a point, as it seemed when he gave Howard a record number of free throw attempts ? “see, we can still win without a bona fide center to defend him”, or, “see, we can win even when the entire starting five can’t get it done”
Music is the Healing Force of the Universe (a.ayler)
I think he is just trying desperately to give a winning chance to this team with gaping holes.
The first thing you learn as PG, since pee-wee league is to take care of the ball. If you are picked once in a game, you feel like shit! We have two pro guards that turned the ball over 10 times last game, against Sacramento (!)!. Now, that is giving the other team the opportunity to score 20-30 points on those 10 turnovers! Add to it the fact that we lose the opportunity to score 20-30 points, and that is a 40-60 point OPPORTUNITY SWING! That was what Curry/Monta did! Pro Guards! You cannot win that way, in games that are usually decided by a few points. Pathetic!
I think our coach is trying everything to win with a lack of talent
By the percentages Dwight was less efficient at the line than from the field (he was at 60% from field, but only 40% from line) and that’s vs. a regular team. We lost our only center who could feasibly match up on him. So imagine what the percentages are v. Lee/Udoh/Biedrins. For what it’s worth he was 57% from field v. us, 53% at the line. So descrepenency wasn’t huge. However if we didn’t foul a bit, I’m positive he’d have been closer to 60+% and we wouldn’t have been in it.
The second unit is producing, statistically as our best unit.
Actually, i like fact Jackson is playing a lot of the numbers. Less coaching by gut, most of these decisions are statistically backed. Jackson’s pretty open minded, but you can’t overcome lack of talent.
so our bench does better than our starters??
start rush and ekpe already goddamnit
It's lonely being the only Warriors fan at UMass :(
hahaha, you totally got me on this one!
Reporter: Why have you only been using your roster as two completely separate units?
Mark Jackson : I think I was trying to suggest something about the duality of man, sir.
Reporter : The what?
Mark Jackson: The duality of man. The Jungian thing, sir.
/fictional press conference
I missed the bottom line, thought it was an actual quote from MFJ
"I am very worried about the Warriors"
-brutusbrutus
by Duby Dub Dubs on Feb 6, 2012 12:00 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
now I am extra ROTFL
excellent reference
"I am very worried about the Warriors"
-brutusbrutus
by Duby Dub Dubs on Feb 6, 2012 1:30 PM PST up reply actions
I guess the gimmick coach is wearing off. I wish Jackson the best, but this is an experiment that is failing so far.
?
I’m curious what warriors fans expectations are with the current roster.
Yeah I'm on the "Fire the FO" bandwagon
Everyone needs to go. Get someone with actual vision as our GM. Trade some of our players. Of course, from what I read apparently ownership shot down that Beans for expiring contracts deal, so maybe Lacob also needs to come to terms with the lack of talent in this roster.
If you're watching a blowout, you can pass the time by counting the double teapots.
Samurai Champloo > Macross
I gif stuff
Don't believe everything you read on the internet - Abraham Lincoln
There's enough talent to make the playoffs.
I truly believe that. However, everything else seems to be lacking. Not the least of which is effort, focus, and defense.
http://nbawarriors.wordpress.com/
Not the least of which is effort, focus, and defense.
Nothing new here. That’s why I like the bench unit more than the starters.
J-RIDAH: Its not 1 player in this draft better than Monta or Lee. Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu. Andre Drummond could be good but he is not impressive at this point at all besides his size. This draft is hella overated.
(JaVale) Mcgee is better than anybody in this draft.
everything else seems to be lacking.
we might have talent but we don’t have it in the rebounding dept.
Mirror on the wall
Here we are again.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 7, 2012 10:01 AM PST up reply actions
I expect us to be on the lousy side of mediocre… I don’t blame Jackson though. This is a poorly built team, and it’s held together with duct tape.
by Uwe Blog on Feb 7, 2012 7:56 AM PST via mobile up reply actions

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