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Dissleavy

When the Warriors selected Mike Dunleavy with the #3 overall pick back in 2002, I thought the organization made another stupid, costly mistake. (For the record I wanted them to take Bay Area product Drew Gooden who's currently averaging an insane 16.3ppg and 12.5rbp- man, we could really use those boards!). Throughout the first few years of his career despite all the local hype ("he's so smart", "he's such a great shooter", "he makes his teammates better", "he has such a great all-around game", etc), I thought Dunleavy was a B-U-S-T. I was never impressed with his on court performance and demeanor. He seemed to be the most overvalued player by the fans, local media, and the Warriors organization- by far. I never understood why Dunleavy got so much praise, while guys like Jason Richardson and Troy Murphy who improved their games tenfold since their rookie seasons didn't get as much hype.

Before the 2005-2006 season Dunleavy was about to be a restricted free agent. I thought that finally the organization could end the failed Dunleavy experiment by either letting him walk at the end of the season or trading him mid-season. The Warriors had to see that Dunleavy just wasn't a starter in this league and they needed to draft or sign a real starting NBA small forward. It seemed perfectly clear that Dunleavy wasn't an impact player in this league.

But in line with the foolish contracts that were handed out to Adonal Foyle, Derek Fisher, and Troy Murphy, the Warriors inked Dunleavy to star money with a 5 year 44 million dollar extension. The extension drove me nuts at the time:

  • Why did the Warriors just reward a player who had been inconsistent and mediocre at best during his first 3 years in the league with such big money?
  • If the Warriors were really intent on keeping him with the team, couldn't they just wait till the end of the season, see how he performed, and then give him an extension based on what his market value was?
  • How could the Warriors be so stupid to think that Mike Dunleavy, Troy Murphy, and Adonal Foyle were an acceptable starting frontcourt in the NBA?
  • Why were the Warriors so keen on locking up a "core" that had never proved that they were a contender or let alone a playoff team?

Most of you of course know what immediately followed that ridiculous contract extension. Fantasy Junkie and I decided to laugh about it- 44 times: Part I | Part II | Part III | Part IV

After one of the toughest seasons being a Warriors fan in which the organization showed a stubborn insistence to play Dunleavy 30 minutes a game despite his unwatchable poor play, a failed Dunleavy as a Point Forward experiment, a failed Dunleavy Point Guard experiment, and an all around acceptance that the Warriors goofed big time handing him that insane contract extension, Warriors Nation and even the national hoops media are dissing Mike Dunleavy like no other:

1028clips.jpg
It's still funny, but not as funny.
(AP Photo/Marcio Jose Sanchez)
 

I've always tried to have a good sense of humor about the Warriors (it's just for fun, there's bigger problems in this messed up world we live in, etc), but Dunleavy's poor play, outrageous contract, unwarranted hype, and even curious team captain status just aren't funny anymore- they're sad. As a longtime Warriors fan the jokes can only keep you going for so long. Funleavy Foto Fun and the absurd praise some of Dunleavy's few remaining supporters insist on giving him, while still entertaining, just don't do it for me like they used to. It's been too long. I'm sure the jokes will continue, but all jokes aside I'd like to see one of four things happen with a strong preference for the unlikely #3 and #4:

  1. Mike Dunleavy at the age of 26 finally steps up and becomes the player all his longtime supporters have always hyped him up to be.
  2. Coach Don Nelson banishes Mike Dunleavy from the starting lineup and never plays him more than 10 minutes a game purely to rest the starters
  3. The front office owes up to their foolish past mistakes and trades him the instant some GM is desperate enough to deal for him
  4. The Warriors negotiate a contract buyout with Mike Dunleavy and his super-agent


Mike Dunleavy is now in his 5th season with the Warriors. Through 5 games his play on a minute-by-minute basis is at an all time low : 8.2ppg (39.4% FG and 68.8% FT), 3.0 rpg, 1.8 apg : 1.6 turnovers, 0.6 spg, and 0.6 bpg. Dunleavy has historically gotten off to slow starts, but with his team captain title, veteran status on this young team, hype and confidence from Don Nelson in the offseason, and his statement that former Warrior coaches Eric Musselman and Mike Montgomery used him improperly, things were supposed to be different. It just doesn't add up. What gives?

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Dunleavy...
I think I remember how he got the $44 mil extention now... besides all the (explicit) sucking to the execs, there was a time early on in his career where Jerry West really went for Dunleavy HARD!!! I mean there were heavy rumors about the interest that West had in Dunleavy, trying multiple packages such as Gooden and a future first or second for Dun, Battier for Dunleavy and a second, and I can't remember the last.... but apparantly West saw a lot of potential in him through the first two years of his career with the Warriors.  Of course that translated into Mullin (a rookie GM) jumping at the thought of Dunleavy having potential... the type of potential that the GREAT JERRY WEST saw... and TRIED HARD to see that potential turn into a great player.  We saw the firing of Musselman because he didn't want to play Dun and the hiring of Monty because he did anything Mullin wanted him to.  After 2 season where Dunleavy avg'd 30+ minutes with a $44 mil extention in between, he has proven to be one of the biggest busts in the Warriors organization history.  Where do we go from here... I really believe the reason why Mullin made him a tri-captain this season and tried to convince Nelson to give him playing time was to boost his trade value in order to move him (along with the one year contracts in Zarko and McLeod) for something semi decent.  If we can't move him this season we'll never be able to move him... and that's just a horrific thought.  We'll see what the future holds... but all I know is I have 6 more games to go see live this year after seeing the W's lose to the fakers.  I can only hope that we can win the games against Tor, Phx, Sac, NO, and Wash as well as the rest that I'm not going to.  Let's go W's!

by mightymadskillz on Nov 9, 2006 11:32 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Dunleavy Skills

Shooting: horrible. Once every 10-11 games he gets hot. Most of the time when he throws up a shot, us fans know the results in advance.

Rebounding: not good. Can't get a board in traffic. The only rebounds he gets are balls that bounce long.

Passing: OK. definitely overrated. Once in awhile he makes a nice pass. mostly just throws it around the perimeter. His assist numbers tell the story.

1-1 moves:  Nonexistent. Can't take anybody off the dribble. I've seen plenty of opportunities for him to take his man. He instead chooses to throw to someone else and let them do the work.

I expect his playing time to keep shrinking as the season goes on.  Nellie will only go with players that are producing.

by GoNellieGo on Nov 9, 2006 12:30 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

It makes sense to me
One of the biggest criticisms of the organization at the time of the bad signings was of letting decent players slip away and becoming great players.  Could this have been a misguided and impulsive show of faith that the organization was now committed to a stable core of players, and not being a revolving door for up and comers and near-retirees?

Of course, the shower of millions has resulted in uninspired and/or stagnant play, with the exception of Jason Richardson. In hindsight, of course it is obvious that players should never be paid for potential!  Consider the lesson learned; we havn't locked up Petrius... yet.

As Atma Brother ONE eloquently states, it appears Dunleavy has been given far too much credit.  However, I believe this to be a front for a savvy strategy to clarify the reality of his abilities.  While the Warriors have done everything possible to help Dunleavy succeed, I'd argue they are not counting on it.  Yes, he was made a captain and point, but after benching him a few games in, it seems this was a token show of faith to keep his confidence up and rule out misplaying him all these years.  I don't think it is coincidence that there are multiple people to run the point or play forward when he is benched.  

Don Nelson is famous for creative and brilliant trades.  If Petrius or Diogu can't prove their ability to be star forwards, I'm guessing we'll get one.

by RonG on Nov 9, 2006 1:07 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Science?
   They didn't say there would be science!

by Skeptic con Urquell on Nov 9, 2006 1:26 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

dude
he sucks, there should of been something in his conrtact that says "if you suck within the first 2 yeras of this extension we don't have to pay you"

by djchuckdeez on Nov 9, 2006 1:41 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Great f***ing diary, Atma Bro
You laid it out so perfectly, all I have to say is "RIGHT ON."

by Sleepy Freud on Nov 9, 2006 1:55 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

The fact that...
...I feel ashamed to NOT be a Dun-hater on this site is a bit disheartening.  There's something about the severe Dun-hate that is worrisome and overboard.

I'll let ya'll have your "fun" destroying one of our own players.  That's cool.

I'm just waitin' for some John L firepower.  

GO 76ers!!!

by jgodoski on Nov 9, 2006 2:01 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Just so there's so confusion
I wanted this piece to read as my own personal reflection of the Dunleavy era with the Warriors. I hope it clarifies my viewpoints, but most likely it's going to cause a bunch of drama. It's all good, we're here to discuss and I'm here to clarify anything I left out or wasn't clear about.

by Atma Brother ONE on Nov 9, 2006 2:07 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Not all are Dun "haters"
There are some of us who still wish and hope Dunleavy will live up to his potential and hype.

In all fairness if we rip on Dunleavy because of his contract, we must also hate on Foyle (sorry Zorgon =P)

by YaoButtaMing on Nov 9, 2006 2:10 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

He sucks
He is garbage, and I hope that something happens that results in him not being on tha warriors and tha warriors not having to pay him. Not to wish death on anyone hahahahaha. But thats how much i want him off tha team. He gives us white people a bad name.
I love 2 tell tha truth, but I'm such a Good Liar

by JRichIsStillAGodButBiedrinsIsABeast on Nov 9, 2006 2:53 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

i maintain hope he won't suck
i guess the point is that dunleavy became the great white hope and it was basically unwaranted and mainly he was a solid college player with an NBA dad and people wanted to see him as this highly marketable player.

in terms of the guy it's nothing against him, he's just not what he was hyped to be, not what he's paid to be.  unfortunately, in the age of the salary cap, an unproductive fool like that is like a chain around our collective, warrior-loving necks.

so we don't hate dunleavy, per se.  we just everything he represents.

All-time Oakland Warriors starting five: Hardaway, Richardson, Mullin, Larry Smith, Robert Parish

by OaktownWarrior on Nov 9, 2006 3:42 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Just Plug Your Nose, And Hope......
Nice diary Atma. I'll admit to being  duped about MDJ's potential over the past couple of years. Last year, I questioned his  mental toughness more than his skills. I mean, anyone that goes to a few games can see, the dude is  a heckler's dream. He responds in one fashion or another to silly shit guys yell at him from the stands all night. Once that starts happening  (especially on your home court), it's over. WAY over. Add that to the fact that:

He's too slow, on offense and defense.

He can't shoot....not even in streaks!

The dude's a tweener in the classic sense: Any 3 worth a shit will blow past him, and  nearly every 4 in the league will treat him like , well, we've all seen the "Foto Fun."

All that being said, I will NOT  boo a player on my own team. That's just bush. It serves no purpose. If it makes you feel better, well I'm sorry.

So my advice is to just hope against hope that we can find a way to get SOMETHING out of this guy, 'cause my gut tells me, we're stuck with him.

Thank God Nellie realized that MDJ and Murph on the court together was basically  B-ball suicide. Monte never figured that one out!

I'm going to the game tonight to witness a victory and pay too much for my beer.

by Sleepy71 on Nov 9, 2006 3:00 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Can't blame Dun
I understand all the frustration MDJ causes.  For his first 3 years, I kept saying "Next year he'll break out."  But it never came.  

But you can't blame Dunleavy for accepting a $44 million dollar contract.  You can't blame him for being paid like a star even if he's not one.  Management is the only place anybody can point fingers.  It's not Dun's fault he was drafted as the 3rd overall pick.  It's not his fault he's paid like a starter.  It's not his fault coaches played him 30 minutes a game.  If Dunleavy was making $5 mil a year and coming off the bench, nobody would have any problems with him.  But management put him in this position where everybody expects him to be a starter and put up big numbers.

by LancerEvoV on Nov 9, 2006 3:03 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

I'll blame management, but also...
I'll call MDJ out.  With his own self-hyped "use me right" mentality, now is his time to flourish.  I really don't think it's the skills that's his problem.  Guys as slow as him have been able to succeed in the league, but you can tell it from his body language.  MDJ just doesn't have his heart/mind into it.  And that's something that is VERY hard to change.  I had a lot of hope for Dun when he was drafted, but game in game out over the last several seasons has shown that he just can't cut it.  I'm still pulling for him to do well in Nellie's system, but so far, I'm not holding my breath.

by yuletak on Nov 9, 2006 4:15 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'll blame management, but also...
I'll call MDJ out.  With his own self-hyped "use me right" mentality, now is his time to flourish.  I really don't think it's the skills that's his problem.  Guys as slow as him have been able to succeed in the league, but you can tell it from his body language.  MDJ just doesn't have his heart/mind into it.  And that's something that is VERY hard to change.  I had a lot of hope for Dun when he was drafted, but game in game out over the last several seasons has shown that he just can't cut it.  I'm still pulling for him to do well in Nellie's system, but so far, I'm not holding my breath.  

At least we agree that Evo's rock.  ; )

by yuletak on Nov 9, 2006 4:16 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

well stated
My comment is less about skills than it is about ideology.

i think the "potential" is long gone.  Most players @ the age of 22 are considered to "old" to possibly have any more upside. Consider the relationship between age and the discourse on 'potential' and 'upside' and how seniors in college have supposedly peaked; the sudden realization that Monta is 21 and was an older high schooler means that his development is stunted; and Espn.com assessment of his potential as unlimited if he's 19, but considered over @ 21.  Surprisingly, Dun apparently has unlimited (and latent) potential that just needs to be tapped by the right coach.  Not to make it racial, but it seems more than coincidental that this unlimited potential doesn't apply to most players of color.  

Something funny that someone posted a few days ago was how Dun's strength now is how he is able to come off the bench to relieve the starters!  Is that how bad it has really gotten that we continue to laud Dun for things that we should expect from any player on any team?

True, its not Dun's fault for getting that contract.  Perhaps continually dissin' on Dunleavy isn't productive for moral; yet it seems that there are continual reasons to diss on him considering how the hype around Dunleavy regenerates and we are ultimately let down over and over again.  Moreover, Dun directly contributes to the hype with unlimited excuses as to why he doesn't succeed in every system he's been in!    

by dj fuzzylogic on Nov 9, 2006 4:07 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

well
well we all just need to watch my boy Dunleavy tonight.

by straightfromthebay on Nov 9, 2006 4:15 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Wow
Atma: MWahaha, another opportunity seized to link to the 44 reasons why Dunleavy should not have gotten 44 million!

by Zorgon on Nov 9, 2006 4:20 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Haha
But it was part of my reflection in this piece. I was just recounting the history.

by Atma Brother ONE on Nov 9, 2006 4:24 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

OK, kids, school's in . . .
First, blaming Dun for getting drafted at No. 3 is insane.  Second, blaming Dun for getting the $44 million extension is also insane.  (True, when asked, any hater will fess up that it was Mullin, not Dun who's responsible, but then everyone goes back to repeating this ad nauseum.  Why, I bet Atma's said it 100 times in the past year alone.  Is there any reason, then, that it's almost the first thing out of a hater's mouth?)  Third, jumping on Dun while ignoring the other over-paid players on this team -- and until they really make a move, who isn't overpaid among BD, JRich, Murph and Foyle -- and, let's say, Foyle, in particular, who makes about the same as Dun, and plays not at all -- is just childish (but no surprise from the Dunleavy haters -- especially those that really enjoy jumping on a guy when he's down -- better to get some winged insects, Atma).  Fourth, for a site that claims to be pro the team, you boys certainly go out of your way to be as negative as possible about this guy.  The simple response is: "Grow up"  But that doesn't seem to work here in the land of perpetual (e.g. "ha-ha-ha") adolescence.  So. . . .

Think about it.  Dunleavy is, indeed, off to a terrible start.  Very disappointing to me.  More disappointing, I'm sure, to Nellie and Mullin.  Most disappointing to Dunleavy, himself.  His shooting's only marginally better than last year, he's not playing as fast as he should, and his rebounding has generally been execrable.  He just doesn't have an easy fit now.  Conceded.

But we have only played five games.  The team's still looking for an identity -- that is, apart from Atma's beloved "Let's watch cool BD pound the ball; it's just so much fun when he has the ball in his hands; who cares about anything else" -- and, if BD does come around, and learn how the game is played in the last two minutes, something he's shown he has no knowledge of recently, if JRich starts playing like he can, and if Monta and AB continue improving, we're going to have a pretty good -- and fun -- team.  That didn't exist last year.  At all.

Now, if that all happens, Dunleavy has a chance to do what I think he's best suited for, in a way that will help the team: he can be the sixth man, because he can do so many things, he's that versatile.  He's convinced me, though, that he first needs to improve his poor rebounding, and he may be doing just that.  In the N.O. game, at the end, he was the only W playing defense, getting stops and giving us a chance (even tho you young 'uns were, apparently, unable -- or maybe just unwilling -- to see that).  (A few minutes before he HAD missed a three and a lay in, but no one seems to appreciate just how he held things together -- when no one else was doing jack -- in the last two minutes.  And the team desperately needs people who can play when the game's on the line.

In other words, as bad as he's played this year overall -- and I agree he HAS been bad, tho not so bad as BD was in that Utah stinkeroo (anyone can have bad games) -- the guy can still be useful to this team.  (Nellie didn't have to play him at the end of the N.O. game, just as Nellie didn't have to take the ball out of BD's hands, and give it to Monta, at the end.  He had a good reason for doing both.  Ponder that.)

So, while Dun's admittedly down now, and it's real easy -- and oh so cool -- to kick someone when their down, what purpose is really being served here, other than that childish one to be a bully -- and get some jollies at someone else's expense?  What's your real point, Atma?  What are you trying to accomplish here?  Just trying to round up the gang of haters and get 'em all on board?

If you were really interested in seeing the W's win, you'd never slide down this slippery slope of puerility. I, for one, hated the way BD played last year -- thought he absolutely killed any chance for the team to succeed because of his oversized ego and his abject refusal to play a team game.  But I recognize his tremendous talent, and am extremely happy to see him use it more constructively and play well the past two games -- at least until crunch time.  And I think he's smart enough to figure that out, too.  

But with you and Dunleavy, it's just an endless stream of pure vitriol, repeat showings of "hilarious" photos, etc.  It's as if when he scews up, you go into Seventh Heaven -- and what's THAT all about?  No, if you really were a team guy (tho you've pretty much shown that the team game isn't your preferred cuppa), you'd cut the guy some slack (five games! really) and focus on what the guy -- and more important, the team -- are doing right, because it's been a while since we've seen team play around here.

But unfortunately thats not your style.  Too bad, because you'd be a lot better doing what you do if you didn't push the envelope on this Dunleavy hatred thing so much.  So, as I've pleaded before,why not give it till mid-season, at least?  Would that be too hard?  

And try being constructive -- try permitting yourself to see and understand it when Dunleavy does do something well.  You might actually find you enjoy it. Is there nothing you can allow yourself to see in Dun's game?  Let it go, kid.  You'll be a better guy for it.

OK, guys.  Time for recess again.  Back outside, and into the dirt.

by johnl on Nov 9, 2006 6:08 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Dun's mom?
   or are you just trying to suck all the fun out of this subject :)

by Skeptic con Urquell on Nov 9, 2006 6:33 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

don't ever post on this site again...
if it's related to anything that is pro dunleavy or anything that defends dun from anti dunleavy attacks.

by gsdubz on Nov 9, 2006 7:12 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I like Dunleavy fans!
makes this site unique and diverse. If we all agreed on everything this site would be boring. There are a lot of things I disagree with on Atma's article, but at the same time along with JohnL's.

I think the one thing I can agree on that I'm sure we all share is that we wish Dunleavy ... and frankly the rest of the team, would play to their ability. I applaud JohnL for asking us to be more constructive and agree with him ... however how much fun would that be =P

So to keep this debate going I say "GO ON JOHNL" and every Dunleavy fan out there (echo echo). I think he'll come around, and if he doesn't then Nellie will just play him as the 6th man, making most people happy either way.

by YaoButtaMing on Nov 9, 2006 8:02 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Clarifications
First, blaming Dun for getting drafted at No. 3 is insane.  Second, blaming Dun for getting the $44 million extension is also insane.  (True, when asked, any hater will fess up that it was Mullin, not Dun who's responsible, but then everyone goes back to repeating this ad nauseum.  Why, I bet Atma's said it 100 times in the past year alone.  Is there any reason, then, that it's almost the first thing out of a hater's mouth?)

I thought it was pretty clear from this piece and what I've written in the past that I blame the organization for the bad pick and the contract. This goes for anyone- get your dollars. I'd rather have that Dunleavy get that paper, than Cohan. It's not Dunleavy's fault he was drafted #3 and got paid 44 million, but it is his fault for not playing hard out there and improving his game.
Third, jumping on Dun while ignoring the other over-paid players on this team -- and until they really make a move, who isn't overpaid among BD, JRich, Murph and Foyle -- and, let's say, Foyle, in particular, who makes about the same as Dun, and plays not at all -- is just childish

I'm surprised you wrote that when I've written how the Warriors front office screwed up big time with Murphy, Dunleavy, Fisher, and Foyle's contracts numerous times. Even in this piece I wrote: "But in line with the foolish contracts that were handed out to Adonal Foyle, Derek Fisher, and Troy Murphy, the Warriors inked Dunleavy to star money with a 5 year 44 million dollar extension." Fisher (last season) and Murphy at least give the Warriors something productive. There's not much to write about Foyle since he doesn't play.
Atma's beloved "Let's watch cool BD pound the ball; it's just so much fun when he has the ball in his hands; who cares about anything else"

You're right that's exactly what I want. Thank you for telling me again what I want to see and happen.
Now, if that all happens, Dunleavy has a chance to do what I think he's best suited for

That's one of my main points- I'm sick of hearing excuses for this guy from his fans and from this guy. It just doesn't stop. I even heard someone on the radio last night say "Dunleavy is at his best WITHOUT the ball in his hands"- WHAT? He and his fans were saying that he was great with the ball in his hands (many said over Baron too) all last season and the offseason. The guy gets endless opportunity that 99% of players in this league never get. I just don't get it.
In the N.O. game, at the end, he was the only W playing defense, getting stops and giving us a chance (even tho you young 'uns were, apparently, unable -- or maybe just unwilling -- to see that)

Agreed. I liked his defensive effort at the end. I thought I even gave his due in the comments for that open thread. If I didn't it's because my eye were glued to the TV set hoping for a comeback win.
What's your real point, Atma?  What are you trying to accomplish here?  Just trying to round up the gang of haters and get 'em all on board?

That's a fair question. No here's my points:
  • Why does Dunleavy keep getting chances?
  • I'm sick of watching him play poorly- I want one of the 1-4 above to happen. It used to be funny to joke around about his poor play, but it's getting old
  • I'm sick of hearing excuses for his poor play
  • I'm sick of him talking big
  • I used to be one of the few people who were critical of his performance and attitude, but now it's becoming widespread on the net and he's getting booed at the arena like no other. It's just not funny anymore. The Warriors need to do something.
And you're constant reliance on age to bolster your arguments cracks me up. You're smarter than that. How would you feel if I wrote something like "Old man- you need to get your eyes checked?" Exactly, it's immature and pointless. I'd appreciate it if you didn't have to go that route, but it's beyond my control.

Always a good discussion though.

by Atma Brother ONE on Nov 10, 2006 9:17 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

equal opportunities
With prop 2 passing (for those outside of michigan, it was the official banning of affirmative action), I'm very hesitant about using the term "equality."  But for the lack of a better word, @ gsom, we should respect people's arguments, especially if they're supported logically (unlike some msg boards where its just people using homosexual slurs to knocks folks).  For the most part, JohnL posts (outside of Dunleavy stuff) are rather well argued and insightful.  Tho, I gotta give 'some' props to JohnL for consistently stickin' to his ideologies considering how no one else seems to agree anymore..

Anyway, what I would like to ask JohnL is why we need to continue to be patient with Dunleavy considering how long we've waited?  It seems that even local beat writers like Tim Kawakami (sp?) and Marcus Thompson, once staunch supporters, are realizing that Dun just isn't and WON'T be that good. Granted, blasting Dun daily doesn't help the cause, but considering the hype machine that Dun has created around himself (more smoke and mirrors than GSoM ..haha), I seems somewhat fair to be upset.. again!

by dj fuzzylogic on Nov 9, 2006 8:21 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

spread the hate equally
I think his point is, why does this site go out of its way to hate on MDJ?  Why, in every post-game recap, is there a paragraph dedicated to how poorly MDJ played?  You know, and I know, that MDJ isn't good.  So are you expecting him to put up good numbers?  I'm not.  So why go out of your way to hate?  Why aren't there articles about how Adonal Foyle is the $40 million towel waver?  Seriously, that guy makes a ton of money to be getting Coach's Decision - DNPs.  He's not even active for half the games.  Why is there rarely a mention of our $15 million dollar 37%FG shooter?  After every loss there should be something said about the management that signed 6 guys to huge contracts.  One which is justified, one which they miraculously traded, one which is marginal at best, and 2 too guys that shouldn't be starters in any league.  

by LancerEvoV on Nov 9, 2006 8:42 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Fair questions. . .
But first, some clarification.  Tho this is a confirmed anti-Dun site, that doesn't mean I'm the only one seeing something postive in Dun's game -- even as poorly as he's played so far this year.  Nelson still likes him, and used him effectively at N.O. (O.C. actually) to get virtually all the team's stops at the end of that game -- even Atma concedes that.  And he did OK as sixth man in the N.O. game here Friday -- good line; and he and Davis played well together, especially at the end of the first half.  If he really was carrion, he wouldn't play a minute on Nellie's team (see e.g. Dujuan, Adonal, etc.)

  No, he might not be the guy we'd hoped -- but that doesn't mean he's worthless.  And, just who would you put ahead of him on this team anyway?  Certainly not MP, who tho improved, has no consistency.  Maybe play BD-JRich-Monta -- I like that -- but you need someone who knows what he's doing coming off the bench.  That is, and should be Dun's role.  And, give it some time, it really could work.

Now, as to the fair question.  Besides me, and the occasional quotes from Nellie, Mully and the like, I'm not sure exactly what constitutes "the Dun hype machine" -- and as this site reflects, most seem to be happy just getting their jollies at how poorly Dun has fit in thus far.  So, the "hype" machine is really not an issue.

The real question -- and it's a good one -- is "why we need to continue to be patient" with him.  I can only give you my answer -- but it works for me:

Dun's a Warrior, and I'm a Warrior fan.  I think he wants to succeed, wants to help the team.  I like that.  He also knows what he should do, even if his performance doesn't always reflect it.  (As T.S. Eliot wrote: "Between the idea and the reality, falls the shadow."  True in many ways for all of us.)

But as weak as he's been, he does do things on this team no one else does.  First, he uses his smarts and his pretty quick hands to play defense when it's needed most -- at the end of the game.  (I suspect before too long, if AB learns to hit free throws and continues to improve his footwork and avoid the reach-ins, we'll be seeing a lot of those two in the games at the end in the near future, and it will really help this team which has played so poorly in the fourth quarter in the last two years.  Let's see.)  Second, he's very verbal, spacing W's on the floor on offense to set up passing lanes.  Third, although it's not where it should be, his long-range shooting has improved -- and looks better as to form -- this year; at any rate, he's not where he was last year.  Fourth, and this is what bugs Nellie and me most, he has a physical capacity to sneak in and get rebounds because of his length and vision -- but the guy just hasn't done it (except, as noted, in spurts at the end of games); this is a big key to any future success for him, and I hope he's getting it (like Davis seems to be getting the idea that team play works).  Fifth, and I've said this before, he's the one guy on the team who knows how and when to give the hard foul -- not a flagrant, like Terry's on Monta -- but enough to let a guy know he's not going in free anymore.  Ask Kobe or KMart, both of whom "died" last year after Mike took them out on otherwise uncontested drives. No one else does this -- at all.

Now, to me, that's enough to build on.  No need to grind the guy into the ground.  Patience doesn't mean one shouldn't be critical; Hell, I've been uber-critical of Davis's play since last year when he let his tremendous talent be washed down the drain by his outsized ego -- but I'm happy as a clam to see what appears to be a real turnaround this year.  And Davis, no matter what else one thinks, is the singular key to success or failure for this team.  No, criticize Dunleavy -- but try to show what he needs to do rather than just froth at his salary or bitch about missed open shots (everyone misses open shots; BD more than Dun, last year anyway).

And finally, for Atma, it has nothing to do with physical age; it has everything to do with an ability to BLEND the passion of being a fan with the ability to analyze without being puerile, churlish or adolescent.  So, again, I say to the "Dun is Darth Vader on a bad day" crowd -- what's your point, other than that hating the guy gives you an outlet to express your rage?  If he bothers you THAT much, just ignore him -- and trust Nellie.  I think that's your loss -- because it renders you incapable of appreciating anything he does bring to the game.  But it's an easier choice.

And the proof of the pudding will be this:  Although everyone in the world knows Dun's salary -- and that he and most of the team are grossly overpaid, even by NBA standards -- let's see how many days pass before Dun blows a play and someone screams about the $44-45 million.  (No one cries about Adonal's similar salary, even tho Nellie won't even play him.)  Can we at least give that tired tune a break?

OK.  Does that answer your Q?

by johnl on Nov 11, 2006 12:01 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Nice words
Tho this is a confirmed anti-Dun site

I know you're probably referring to the community as a whole, but I just wanted to make it clear that my views are my views and don't represent the other 5 GSoM writers. For example, YaoButtaMing talks like Dunleavy fan.
The real question -- and it's a good one -- is "why we need to continue to be patient" with him.  I can only give you my answer -- but it works for me:

Dun's a Warrior, and I'm a Warrior fan.  I think he wants to succeed, wants to help the team.  I like that.  He also knows what he should do, even if his performance doesn't always reflect it.  (As T.S. Eliot wrote: "Between the idea and the reality, falls the shadow."  True in many ways for all of us.)


I obviously don't have as much patience for Dunleavy as you do, but I really respect your attitude on this one. You've been a Warriors fan before I was born and you get nothing but my utmost respect for that kinda patience with this team and its players. That's loyalty. Hopefully someday the Warriors will reward their fans.

I find that you and I actually agree on most things hoops related besides our thoughts on Baron Davis and Mike Dunleavy (you would really rather have Dunleavy over Wally Sczerbiak?- I'd make that deal in a heartbeat). Good thing we have BD and Dun on this team to keep our discussions that much more interesting.

Good looking out.

by Atma Brother ONE on Nov 11, 2006 5:05 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

You want Wally ball?
You may prefer Wally ro Dun, but then you thought Davis played like an all-star last year and should have made Team USA -- when he was pure poison and made even Dun almost look like a pure shooter.  If you can't tell how much netter BD is this year marching to a team-play drumbeat, there's really little hope that we'll ever agree on things.

But personal differences aside, look at what I wrote yesterday (above) -- BEFORE the Pistons game -- about the five reasons I believe Dun is a very valuable asset on this team.  Except for the fact that there was no need yesterday for the hard foul -- largely because BD got off to such a terrific start -- all four of my other thoughts came thru.  He was a great addition off the bench, played 28 strong minutes (just about right), hit 50% of his shots, including a three, pulled down six rebounds by using his length, spaced his teammates and had nine assists -- including that perfect pass to a driving BD, moving nicely without the ball BTW, and Dun generally kept things rolling.

If you didn't appreciate (forget about "like" for the haters) the guy last night -- and give him his props for playing well, especially in light of the fact that this has been GSOM's "national hate Dunleavy week" (imagine, if you will --sorry Rod -- such a hateful, spiteful little hatchet job on any other NBA team blog -- especially when the team was starting to get on a roll!) -- you're really not paying attention.  So heed this:

The W's are playing the best ball I've seen since the Run TMC days.  Nellie's got them buying into the team concept, and to BD's major credit he's buying into it big-time, thus far.  They've now tumbled into a starting five that makes sense for them (Nelson's seventh did the trick): BD, Monta, JRich, Murph and Biedrins.  Dunleavy was steady, stable, and just plain good off the bench.  MP is playing better, but Andris has really come of age and is a joy to behold with those long arms, soft hands and strong heart.  This is good ball, and last night was a great example.

So, give the adolescent posturing a break (e.g. Atma's fatigue at the "absurd praise" for Dun), start enjoying what's before you, and think constructively -- how meld these diverse talents into a team?  How match our guys up with fast teams (Mavs?) and slow teams (Pistons?).  How do you play thru a losing skein?  That's where the fun is; that's where one can transcend the desultory, quotidian comments that cause me to write: "Grow up!"

Atma, you in particular have some good things to say and nice observations to make, but this anti-Dunleavy crusade is pure lunacy and undercuts everything else you offer.  Just as it took BD this long to play well here, it's taking Dun (and Nelson) time to find his fit.  I see it coming, but admittedly I'm an old time guy who likes old time play -- so someone like Dun is always appealing to me for what he can bring to the game.  So, I really think it's happening, but even if not, let's cut the kid -- and the team -- some slack on the hatchet pieces for a while, even at the cost of a few readers' "ha-ha-ha-ha-ha" comments.  You really don't need such pats on the back.  OK?

by johnl on Nov 12, 2006 5:41 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

A few thoughts
You may prefer Wally ro Dun, but then you thought Davis played like an all-star last year and should have made Team USA -- when he was pure poison and made even Dun almost look like a pure shooter.  

Baron didn't deserve to make the All Star team last season, but he (as well as JRich) should've got a tryout for Team USA over guys like Luke Ridnour. I stand by that. Team USA selections weren't just about a 1 year performance, but about careers and building up a competitive national team for the next few years. Sorry, but Baron's more valuable and useful than Ridnour (+ several other players who got to tryout that I can't recall right now) and was robbed of an invite.
imagine, if you will --sorry Rod -- such a hateful, spiteful little hatchet job on any other NBA team blog -- especially when the team was starting to get on a roll!

I really think you're misreading this post. The hate isn't about Dunleavy. It's frustration with the situation and a plea for the Warriors and fans to move on.
So, give the adolescent posturing a break (e.g. Atma's fatigue at the "absurd praise" for Dun), start enjoying what's before you, and think constructively -- how meld these diverse talents into a team?  How match our guys up with fast teams (Mavs?) and slow teams (Pistons?).  How do you play thru a losing skein?  That's where the fun is; that's where one can transcend the desultory, quotidian comments that cause me to write: "Grow up!"

Huh? Look at the post breakdown. I don't write about Dunleavy that much, yet it gets ALL the attention when I do. Why? It still puzzles me.

I rarely see you in particular post anything about any other player or piece I put up unless it mentions Dunleavy. Why? I obviously like talking Warriors, let's talk Warriors- not just Dunleavy.

Just as it took BD this long to play well here, it's taking Dun (and Nelson) time to find his fit.

Last I checked this is Duleavy's 5th year with the team, yet BD's been here for about 1.5 seasons. I don't understand why there's a double standard here- Dunleavy gets all the patience and opportunities in the world, yet after BD has one season with bad shot selection and injuries, and you were ready to paint him as a cancer on this team.
I see it coming, but admittedly I'm an old time guy who likes old time play -- so someone like Dun is always appealing to me for what he can bring to the game.

This is what I just don't get at all. I've obviously been watching/ playing basketball for some time, so I'm nearing the age where I'm "old school". I think back to all the great stars/ role players I've watched and the old classic 80's/ 70's games I've seen on TV and Dunleavy doesn't remind me of any of those guys. Those guys were tough. They weren't soft on the defensive end. They always hustled. They fought hard for rebounds. They made their shots. They passed extremely well. They had drive. Those guys had heart. They didn't make excuses. They produced.

I've seen none of that consistently from Dunleavy in his 4 years here. And I personally don't have any patience to wait for him to untap these "hidden" skills that have lay dormant his entire NBA career.

Take the last word if you want it.

by Atma Brother ONE on Nov 12, 2006 8:00 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Well, we disagree. . .
First, Davis WAS a cancer on the team last year.  'Nuff said about that.  And tho he can be a MUCH better player than Ridnour (who, strangely, has eaten him alive at times), Coach K obviously saw that cancer when he refused even to consider Davis for the team.  Smart guy.  Davis deserved nothing but astrong criticism for the way he played last year.  It's that simple.

Second, with you and Dun, it's NOT just frustration; it IS hate.  Why else that hatchet job, just when the team is turning around?  And, slowly, Dun HAS started to fit in over the past three games.  It's not earth shattering, but then I've always said his strength is complementary.  The vitriol level here is just absurd, unless you EXPECT Dun automatically to be a superstar.  You certainly go out of your way to dump on him in almost a religious fashion; it's non-sensical and counter to your professed love for the team -- and the game.

Finally, as to your description of old time players, if you haven't seen that in Dun the last three games, you're just not watching.  Who, besides AB, has shown any defensive presence, especially at the end of games?  Who's hustling at the end of games getting tips, steals and rebounds?  Who's been spacing and feeding teammates -- including BD -- from the point?  How can you NOT appreciate Dun's play in the Pistons game: 50%, six RBs, 8 assists (tho I'd counted nine), and three steals in 28 minutes?  No production; no heart?

Instead of recognizing his budding growth in the new mix, you're preoccupied (and oh so smugly satisfied) with that smarmy, adolescent -- almost punkish -- comment that at least he's up'ed his trade value.  And you call yourself a team guy?

Even if Dun WERE the weak link here -- or a non-entity like that other equally-overpaid guy, Adonal -- why do you have such a thing for this repetitious, almost crazed, and endless string of attacks?  What's the bang in that for you?  Put simply, I can see the changes in Davis's game, and I'm liking what I see thus far; why are you so blinded to what Dun CAN do, rather than fixated on what he can't?  Maybe you could distance yourself a bit, and give it some fresh thought -- because, so far, all I see are defensive reactions to obvious truths.  In short, maybe a little patience IS merited: I mean, you've been watching a horrible team for over 10 years and Dun's only been here four (and didn't really play the first two).

by johnl on Nov 13, 2006 10:56 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I'd hope so
"The W's are playing the best ball I've seen since the Run TMC days"
 It would be expected with the young guys getting another year of experience. They had spurts of good play last year as well but injuries cut it short. We're gonna be short at center if biedrins wrecks his car again so I'd like to see foyle in the mix, it's gonna take N-POB at least a year to get up to speed.
  As for dunleavey he's about the same as last year too, adequate but not much fun to watch, I'd rather be stuck with Josh Smith from that recent "losers list", I'm too old to watch Dun-ball I want some windmill dunks!

by Skeptic con Urquell on Nov 12, 2006 8:07 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

dunleavy playing well tonight
my biggest complaint is consitency. he'll have a game like this and then we'll go a week without seeing him. he's been playing pretty well since he's been coming off the bench (bit of props for myself since i've said he should be 6th-7th man since training camp)

by AJC3317 on Nov 9, 2006 8:26 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Maybe?
 He sees the writing on the wall when barnes comes in and hustles so well? Dun played a pretty good  game last night, I'd be happy with that effort everytime.
  Dunleavey can fill a spot need if he applies himself.I think he should work out a bit so he can dunk! Whaat's with all the soft finishes? He's too big to play like a small man.  

by Skeptic con Urquell on Nov 10, 2006 9:26 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Related
From everyone's favorite cranky hoops analyst/ Warriors hater Charley Rosen:

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/6158676?CMP=OTC-K9B140813162&ATT=73

How interesting that Nellie abandoned small-ball after one game. It seems as though he suddenly discovered that Mike Dunleavy couldn't defend or rebound at the power-forward position. Did Nellie think that his own mere presence would instantly transform the weak, lanky Dunleavy into a brute?

Prior to this season, Dunleavy had played in a total of 317 NBA games. Were any of those against Dallas during Nellie's tenure on the Mavs' bench? And what was Nellie attending to during the Warriors' most recent training camp? His shaky real estate investments? His next meal? His next nap? His next lawsuit?

by Atma Brother ONE on Nov 11, 2006 5:20 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Whaat?!! Dun had GAME
 against Toronto, he even tried to DUNK! didn't make it but that's ok, you gotta take baby steps before you can run. Hope this is the start of a new BAAAD!!DUN!!!Wonder if he spent some time in the tanning booth this week?

by Skeptic con Urquell on Nov 14, 2006 10:45 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

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