The PF/C Comparison

by hardcore on Nov 19, 2007 7:59 PM PST

Although I'm having déjà vu after posting a similar diary last summer highlighting why Dunleavy & Murphy, et al did not measure up as PF/C options compared to the rest of the NBA, and miked started this discussion in his Mini-DiaryL Whither POB? http://www.goldenstateofmind.com/story/2007/11/18/154457/91
the comparison offered here was too long to include there and this diary is particularly in response to posts by gsw4life (saying that our backup C is crap is pretty redundant in today's NBA) and Zack Vank (...I don't think we're short at C at all. How many teams have a center [t]andem that is truly better than Biedrins/O'Bryant? Center is still a thin position in today's NBA.). http://www.goldenstateofmind.com/comments/2007/11/18/154457/91/17#17

I agree, center is a pretty thin position - particularly when arguably the best inside player in the West has been labeled a Power Forward for years in order to assure he'd make the All Star Game (Tim Duncan).

However I'm curious how many of you agree that GSW has better depth either at the C spot with Biedrins/O'Bryant or whether the Dubs have better depth at PF/C combined than even a quarter of the league? Take a look for yourselves.

Golden State Warriors
Al Harrington Austin Croshere Brandan Wright
Andris Biedrins Patrick O'Bryant

The following depth charts came from espn.go.com

Disregarding contracts and only evaluating talent, how many teams don't have better quality depth at the PF/C position?

Atlantic Division

Boston
Kevin Garnett Brian Scalabrine
Kendrick Perkins Scot Pollard

NJ
Jason Collins Sean Williams
Nenad Krstic Jamaal Magloire

NY
Zach Randolph David Lee
Eddy Curry Randolph Morris

Toronto
Chris Bosh Jorge Garbajosa Kris Humphries
Rasho Nesterovic Andrea Bargnani

Atlanta
Marvin Williams Shelden Williams
Zaza Pachulia Al Horford

Philly
Reggie Evans Jason Smith
Samuel Dalembert Calvin Booth Shavlik Randolph

Central

Chicago
Andres Nocioni Tyrus Thomas Joakim Noah
Ben Wallace Joe Smith

Cleveland
Drew Gooden Donyell Marshall Cedric Simmons
Zydrunas Ilgauskas Dwayne Jones Anderson Varejao*

Detroit
Rasheed Wallace Jason Maxiell
Antonio McDyess Nazr Mohammed

Indiana
Jermaine O'Neal Ike Diogu
Troy Murphy Jeff Foster

Bucks
Yi Jianlian Charlie Villanueva
Andrew Bogut Dan Gadzuric Jake Voskuhl

Southeast

Atlanta
Marvin Williams Shelden Williams
Zaza Pachulia Al Horford Lorenzen Wright

Charlotte
Emeka Okafor Othella Harrington Sean May
Primoz Brezec Ryan Hollins

Miami
Udonis Haslem Alexander Johnson
Shaquille O'Neal Alonzo Mourning Mark Blount

Orlando
Rashard Lewis Pat Garrity Bo Outlaw
Dwight Howard Adonal Foyle

Washington
Antawn Jamison Darius Songaila Andray Blatche
Brendan Haywood Etan Thomas

Northwest

Utah
Carlos Boozer Paul Millsap Kyrylo Fesenko
Mehmet Okur Jarron Collins

Seattle
Chris Wilcox Johan Petro
Robert Swift Nick Collison K. Thomas M. Sene

Portland
LaMarcus Aldridge Raef LaFrentz Josh McRoberts
Channing Frye Joel Przybilla Greg Oden*

Minnesota
Al Jefferson Craig Smith Antoine Walker
Theo Ratliff Michael Doleac

Denver
Kenyon Martin Nene Hilario Linas Kleiza
Marcus Camby Steven Hunter

Southwest

Memphis
Pau Gasol Stromile Swift Hakim Warrick Brian Cardinal
Darko Milicic Andre Brown

San Antonio
Tim Duncan Matt Bonner Robert Horry
Fabricio Oberto Francisco Elson

Houston
Chuck Hayes Luis Scola Carl Landry
Yao Ming Dikembe Mutombo

Dallas
Dirk Nowitzki Juwan Howard Nick Fazekas
DeSagana Diop Erick Dampier

New Orleans
David West Julian Wright
Tyson Chandler Melvin Ely

Pacific

Sacramento
Mikki Moore Shareef Abdur-Rahim Kenny Thomas
Brad Miller Spencer Hawes

Phoenix
Shawn Marion Sean Marks
Amare Stoudemire Brian Skinner

LA Lakers
Ronny Turiaf Vladimir Radmanovic Brian Cook
Kwame Brown Andrew Bynum Chris Mihm

LA Clippers
Tim Thomas Josh Powell Elton Brand*
Chris Kaman Aaron Williams Paul Davis

*How many of these teams have less depth than we do?

This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!

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Comments

Interesting

First off, it's important to note that we have virtually no data to go on for the Warriors group: Wright has played minimally at best, POB only slightly more so. Croshere's only had one game. Barnes and Pietrus had gotten a ton of backup PF minutes so far, but that probably isn't going to happen as much (I HOPE!!!).

So the short answer to your question:
INCOMPLETE

Now that I've said that...

-Atlantic-
Boston, New Jersey, and Toronto have less quality depth than us.

Boston has Garnett, not much to say about that. None of the rest of their guys is very talented, none of them could be starters on our team. Al/Biedrins/POB/Cro/Wright, imo, are more productive now and have potential to be considerably more productive later.

New Jersey is hurting. Sean Williams has been spectacular, but Krstic is still dragging from injury, Collins and Magloire are unimpressive.

Toronto is also suffering from injury. Garbajosa is having issues with management, Rasho is out. Humphries is an energy guy. Bargnani has some talent, but Harrington is simply more productive now at the moment. Bosh is good, of course, but also hampered by ankle problems. As a result, I do not consider them that good (or as good as they "should" be).

I'll do the rest later.

24 > 23

AIM: Jetforze

by OptionZero @ Golden State Of Mind on Nov 19, 2007 8:22 PM PST reply actions

ok

The rest of the Atlantic: We're better than Philly
Philly is woeful. Evans is the new Fortson (boards and horrible at everything else); Booth is a stiff, Smith is a raw rookie. Dalembert is productive but has no help. I'll take Harrington over anything else they have; I'll chalk up Dalembert and Biedrins as a wash. Even sliding Young as the occasional smallball PF doesn't change this.

Central Division: I'll take our boys over Cleveland, Milwaukee, Indiana and Chicago.

Cleveland is also solid with Gooden/Ilgauskis (for the Mike Brown system), the bench not so much. Simmon and Marshall are warm bodies and not much else. They need Varejao back, then they improve considerably with that 3 man rotation.

Chicago SHOULD be better, but they aren't. Wallace is both old and hurt; Thomas and Noah arein the Skiles doghouse for no reason so it's hard to count them; Smith is average at best. Nocioni = Barnes.

Detroit doesn't need much explanation, we saw it ourselves.

Milwaukee...Yi and Bogut are solid on offense, not better than ours. We play defense, none of theirs do at all (Gadzuric whenever he can find himself on the floor, which isn't much). Upside more than production.

Indiana has Jermaine O'Neal still workin back from injuries. Murphy and Dunleavy ...Diogu...
Well, I like foster, but I'll take our boys, thanks.

Southeast: We beat Charlotte and Miami.

Atlanta is studly. Smith and Horford are awesome; even Zaza and Sheldon are solid backups. Good frontline.

It's no longer crazy to say Shaq just isn't that good at this point. Haslem is productive, Zo is awesome in spurts. I'll take my guys for now and into the future. Miami is rightly leaning heavily on Davis/Wade.

Washington is surprisingly good. Jamison is the scorer, Haywood is the muscle and actually a very good defender (check his block rate). Blatche supplies upside, Songalia is a bench scorer. I can't take our guys over them right now.

Charlotte's Okafor is as good, likely better, than Biedrins, but after that they have absolutely nothing. May's out, Morrison's out, Dudley's an undersized SF forced into PF duty (right?), Brezec , Hollins, and Othella are scrubs.

Orlando's starters are better but they have nothing off the bench. We have more depth, they have better starter quality.

24 > 23

AIM: Jetforze

by OptionZero @ Golden State Of Mind on Nov 19, 2007 9:04 PM PST up reply actions

hey, you forgot DJ Banger

Best duo since...

by Tim N Chris Burger on Nov 19, 2007 8:51 PM PST reply actions

"Quality Depth"

JB, I think you need to define this concept better. As a general rule, I think "depth" is pretty overrated. Once you have a KG or Duncan, it's not that hard to fill-in with the Elsons, Perkinses, Pollards, and Bangers of the world.

OZ, Boston most certainly does not have "less quality depth" than we do, since they have KG, who is worth 379 Al Harringtons and 256 Biedrinses (approximately). If we're talking about this year only -- which we are, presumably -- you'd have to be nuts not to trade our whole crew for one KG, Boozer, or Duncan and four DJ Bangers.

At the very least, if you're going to make this comparison, you need to weight the quality part properly. Something like:

#1 guy's rating x 10
#2 guy x 4
#3 guy x 2
Everyone else x 1

So for example, if a KG or a Duncan is a 9.5 on a scale of 10, a DJ Banger or a POB is a 1, and a league average guy is a 5, a hypothetical comparison might go like this:

KG/Duncan = 9.5x10 = 95
DJ Banger #1 = 1x4 = 4
DJ Banger #2 = 1x2 = 2
DJ Banger #3 = 1x1 = 1
DJ Banger #4 = 1x1 = 1
----
Total = 103

Golden State Warriors
Biedrins = 6x10 = 60
Harrington 5.5x4 = 22
Wright 2x2 = 4
Croshere 2x1 = 2
POB 1x1 = 1
----
Total = 91

Advantage: KG/Duncan and the four Bangers.

by Sleepy Freud on Nov 19, 2007 9:29 PM PST reply actions

Haha

If only I cared to refresh the page I would have seen you beat me to the whole "depth is overrated" conclusion. I should have known better.

by olympicmike on Nov 19, 2007 9:41 PM PST up reply actions

U should name that depth grading system

and have it be your lasting blog legacy ala hollinger and his PER. In two years, you'll see it in espn.com daily dimes next to Ric Bucher's article.

No, seriously.

Best duo since...

by Tim N Chris Burger on Nov 19, 2007 10:04 PM PST up reply actions

TDE

Team Depth Evaluator??? lol

by lightz0ut on Nov 19, 2007 10:25 PM PST up reply actions

in total agreement

with the first part of your post - the last time a three-headed center won a ring was with MJ & Scottie

I was riffin off of what the other posters had claimed and wondering if I was the only one not over-valuing our bigs ...

by hardcore on Nov 21, 2007 12:29 PM PST up reply actions

Fun Diary

Really interesting topic, which as you stated has been somewhat discussed and was begging for a diary of its own. Thanks for putting all together.

I was going to break it down team by team a la OZ, but that might be a bit much so I'll give you the Cliffnotes =P

I asked myself two questions. Is this team "deeper" than the W's in the frontcourt? This to me places a high weight on the number of quality proven NBA players.

Then I asked "would I trade our guys for those guys?" This is not taking salary into consideration as JB requested.

Here's what I cam up with:

Depth
Teams with more depth, 11 in my estimation
Teams that are about even, 7
Teams with less depth 10

When I asked myself the second question here's what I cam up with:

Yes I would trade our guys for those guys 18
No thanks, I'll stick with what we've got, 11

What does this tell me? Well, for one thing we are about middle of the pack depth wise as far as I can tell (through my own biased eyes). However this reminds me that having the best player is almost always more important than having the most depth because almost all of the teams that had similar depth IMO had the best player in the deal (or two guys that were better than ours).

So anyway, to sum up Depth is overrated even though ours isn't as bad as I thought. I'd rather just have the best guy on the court and a bunch of scrubs as long as we are just talking about the frontcourt.

by olympicmike on Nov 19, 2007 9:37 PM PST reply actions

talent + Depth

is best. obviously. Who has more depth? Spurs or warriors, or even Boston or warriors.

I'd say the warriors have more depth at the 4,5 position than both teams, but what separates these two teams is of course TALENT. Duncan and Garnett are way more fundamental, talented, mature, and better overall ball players. That's what wins games. Depth carries the talent through the long haul of the season, however come playoff time, the talent truly must show off ther superiority and dominance over the competition.

Hopefully Biedrins, Wright and/or POB translate the potential they have into production on the court like Duncan and Garnett do on a nightly basis.

Warriors, Stupidest franchise in the league.

by kenntoe on Nov 19, 2007 11:39 PM PST reply actions

where?

We have depth at the 4 & 5? We have 2 solid players at those positions, and 1 is undersized.

A rookie, d-league player, and Austin Croshere don't merit even solid depth until they prove otherwise. Don't get me wrong: it's not that I don't believe our depth will be much improved by midseason. But right now, we have to go small at one or both spots for a majority of the game because the guys mentioned above aren't good for more than 20 minutes a night.

And ideally, the warriors would be able to play Harrington at the 3 and Jack at the 2 more often. Barnes and Pietrus figure in, because Don Nelson is the coach, but obviously neither solve our biggest problem.

by BingBluNT on Nov 20, 2007 12:08 AM PST up reply actions

Well...

...I guess I'm evaluating more based on what I've seen in the games to this point and how I'm projecting these guys. Right now, there isn't a center in the league that I'd trade Biedrins for with the exception of Dwight Howard. Not Yao (not enough stamina, not Amare (gimp knees), not even Duncan (getting old). Additionally, considering how old Alonzo Mourning and Dikembe Mutumbo are, I can't think of a backup center I would trade POB for. Biedrins is a 21 year old athletic big man who as he develops I expect to be at least a 15/12 guy, with a couple blocks per, while POB looks like an excellent, long rebounder, and features a skyhook, a shot that's as dead as Latin in today's NBA.

In the grand scheme of things, Harrington and Croshere ain't much, and I never meant to suggest that we were greatly deep at the power forward, although Brandan Wright has made distinct impacts whenever he's been on the floor, and that has me very excited. At center, though, I view our tandem as at least top ten in the league.

by Zack Vank on Nov 20, 2007 1:23 AM PST reply actions

I don't think it's fair...

...to dismissively refer to POB as a "D League" guy. We can only assess him on what he's done, and when he's been in the game this year, he's played well.

by Zack Vank on Nov 21, 2007 1:04 PM PST reply actions