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YouTube Tuesday: A Diamond Still Rough

MIP to MVP?

Nope! Not quite yet. Despite a great overall performance, it's clear that Monta still has a little bit of growing to do. Out overtime last night was most revealing in that without Baron, there was a lot of nervousness in our remaining ball handlers. It was a scary glimpse into what we may have to endure if Baron (god forbid) got injured and had to sit out a few games.

As our team looks towards the future, however, Monta becomes more and more of an asset with each passing game. Where is he going to be mid-season? Where is he going to be next season? Where is he going to be years from now?

While the answer to that question, (scarily enough) may be "another team", it's exciting to think of Monta on the Warriors a year or two from now. Imagine Ellis with the confidence to lead this team when Baron is off of the floor. Imagine being able to place him in the same 6th man category as players like Jason Terry or (one of my personal favorites) Bobby Jackson. Or better yet, beyond 6th man. Who would we be comparing him to then?

The talent is there. To some degree, he's still a bit of coal, waiting to turn into a brilliant diamond.

Just a little more time.

Just a little more pressure.


Mad props as always to PFortyy for another amazing creation!

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Ellis
You know, I might be able to live with his on-court troubles/improvement see-saw battle except:
  • He's starting from so far behind coming straight from HS and being so young
  • the rumblings, substantiated or not, about his attitude/work ethic/mental makeup
  • repeated injuries or hard falls or general scares, even if they do not result in missed time
As "in-progress projects" go, Ellis scares me. Scares me enough to ask around real hard about what people would give me in return.

24 > 23

WE NEED A BACKUP POINT GUARD

AIM: Jetforze

by OptionZero on Dec 4, 2007 6:06 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

we should always
be willing to listen to offers or seek how to improve the team.  i know there has been "mental-makeup" issues, but I don't recall any attitude or work ethic rumblings?  I've also heard that he hangs out w/some supposedly nefarious characters...but nothing about his work ethic?

In any case, this season and particularly the last couple of weeks he's been allowed to settle into his niche as a third option behind baron/sjax, and he's flourished becasuse of it.  I wish Tony Parker would retire so we could hire him as a personal coach to Monta.  If he can be taught to distribute better...if if if...

by GameSix on Dec 5, 2007 6:52 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I think that Monta's performance on Monday,
Is but a glimpse of what he will be.  So many people on this site say that Ellis is expendable and will be traded before the deadline.  With Buike's great games fading into the recent past, Ellis has emerged as the consistent scorer that Buike is not.
The Difference?  Buike is two years older and has a history of being soft at times.  I'm all down for keeping the man, but as so many of you remarked about trading J-Rich: Swingmen are a dime a dozen.  Once Buike's contract is up, will he be worth the price?  
Ellis may not be a franchise player as far as Baron is at the moment.  But with Biedrins being a "shoe in" to resign according to Mullin, (hmm....), noone on this site likes to entertain the idea of keeping Ellis.  
Here's where OZ posted the projected payroll

http://goldenstateofmind.com/story/2007/11/27/24620/633

And OZ I remember that you said in that post that:
 

Ellis had a great game. A. Single. Game. Against steve nash. Beautiful to watch, amazing to experience, but not that useful for analytical purposes. It's a drop in the bucket. If i let a single game or two (against the suns, no less...as great an outlier as u can get for opponents) influence my thinking, I'd be telling people to do all kinds of crazy stuff.

22 pts, 12 rebounds and 7 assists against arguably the 2nd best team in the East and one of the better defensive teams in the league; that's not bad.
He has had a few great games now.  Although it is sad that Beidrins seems to make more free throws than Monta.  I'm not saying he should stay, but if he shows more consistency, it will up his trade value, or start a Keep Monta Movement. He is worth 6 mil.
BTW...How sick was that 360 pass to Barnes in the corner.  Like I said, but a glimpse of things to come.
Keep Monta Movement.

by danielholl on Dec 4, 2007 9:06 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Ellis/Buike
There's a large difference in the situations of J-Rich, Ellis, and Azubuike: Early Bird Rights.

Richardson, we already know, is due around $12M this year and more the subsequent few years.

Azubuike literally cannot be paid more than the MLE, the cap rules forbid it. Given the sporadic playing time  he's gotten combined with our right of refusal (rfa status), I think he'll very affordable, in the range of $4-5M annual salary. The years will depend on what Azubuike wants to do (long term security or quicker shot at big payday?).

Ellis, however, could demand anything up to $13M- he won't get the max, obviously, but his salary ceiling is considerably higher. Jameer Nelson got around $7M/year as an undersized scoring PG; Devin Harris got a little over $8M a year. Barbosa got only $6.5 or so but signed his before blowing up. Kevin Martin got $11M, but he's a pure SG and probably more productive than any of the guys I just mentioned (he has the 3P shooting as well as a ridiculous number of FTA).

Thus, I anticipate Ellis will demand around $7.5M. If he were willing to accept less, then my willingness to keep him correspondingly increases; if the price rises then obviously the reverse.

So here's the question:

Is Monta Ellis worth $7.5M (something like 5 years, $35-40M?)?

To answer that question, more questions:

  1. How good is he now.
  2. How good will he be.
  3. What is his role, how well does he fit that role.
  4. Given Ellis' role, can anyone on the roster replace his production in that spot?
  5. Given the available FA or trade acquisitions, can anyone outside be brought in for less to replace all or most of his production?
  6. Is there anyone we can draft to fill his spot?
  7. The big one: Can we spend the money it would take to replace Ellis on something else entirely (PG/SF/PF/C) that will make the team better?
My take:
1 and 2, the last few games we've pretty much seen how good he is and can be- I don't see any quantum leaps in production. Ellis has been given a starting job and major minutes; correspondingly he touches the ball alot, gets a ton of shots and opportunities and has generally cashed in.

Number 3, regarding is role, however, ...Ellis's job is first and foremost scoring; any ballhandling or distribution he does is a product of our system, which spreads the floor with shooters and scorers and anyone with a mind to create will be able to rack up some assists. Is it a coincidence that Richardson had the best assisting year of his career (per minute) under Nellieball?

Thus, the system we play in means I must pause before doling out any praise for massively improved passing/ballhandling mentality. Sure, we've seen more flashes...but our offense as a whole has been rolling over fools. Would the offense be even better with even more penetration and superior distribution? The thought of a more efficient offense should frighten the L.

4. Can anyone on the roster replace Ellis? That's a more dubious question, and highlights the damage done with the (at this point) blown Belinelli pick and Hudson signing. Were belinelli productive, then yeah, we could just plug in Belinelli and Azubuike more and keep chugging along. They produce differently (less slashing, more 3P), at least we'd have another scorer ready to go.

If we had picked Crittenton, or as someone else mentioned, Daquan Cook, or if Nick Young had fallen to us...we'd be in great shape; we didn't, and we're a little bit stuck.

Azubuike as a fulltime SG, however, still has quite a bit of potential. His J is more or less back and could (I say "should) be better; we've seen him do alot of things finishing in transition or attacking the offensive glass to produce without plays. Sure, we post him up against any poor fool like Redick or Cassel or scrub defender to dissuade other coaches from playing those guys, but it's not like we run him through picks to free him for Js, or clear a side and let him face up all that much. His minutes and usage bear watching.

It's way, way too early to talk about 5 and 6, and any talk of 7 would be theoretical at best. One guy I'm keeping my eye on is Sebastian Telfair. He's a pseudo-starter on Minnie filling in while Foye is out; when Foye returns Telfair will be 2nd string (or 3rd, if for some reason they go with Jaric).

Telfair has played PG through out his career and was a bust for the first two years in Portland and Boston. Now, however, playing in relative obscurity, he's been pretty productive, with a career year from 3P and FG, and a AST:TO above 2:1. He might be as quick as Ellis, possess even better handles, racks up a good rate of steals, makes his FTs at a 78% clip.

Telfair is a FA and should get almost no attention. As a cheapo "reclamation" project, I like the potential there. This kid is only 22, so there is time and room to grow...and he will most certainly not get remotely close to $7.5M. The only problem is that he would require use of part of the MLE to sign, and we're probably gonna need the MLE to keep Barnes, so money for outside free agents is tight.

If we traded for him, we should (i think) get his Bird rights and be able to pay him anything.

24 > 23

WE NEED A BACKUP POINT GUARD

AIM: Jetforze

by OptionZero on Dec 4, 2007 9:56 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Monta is a Keeper
Its simple, he's special.  He's got the rare ability to be quicker than 99% of the NBA players.  His midrange jumper is looking pretty consistent and he finishes around the rim very consistently.  He's also shown an ability to defend on the ball and his rebounding the past 10 games is awesome.

Decision making needs to be better, its getting better, but still needs improvement.  

What was the worst last night, my only knock, was the end of regulation where he settled for a 3 without being double-teamed.  He should have at the very minimum gotten a mid-range jumper if not a drive.  Very disappointing.

Nothing better than "The City".

by philsmith75 on Dec 4, 2007 10:10 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

so if it were a case of a trade...
who would we want for Ellis? trade for a legit athletic big man?

by crazyray on Dec 4, 2007 11:36 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

athletic big man
Um, don't we already have a few of those?

24 > 23

WE NEED A BACKUP POINT GUARD

AIM: Jetforze

by OptionZero on Dec 5, 2007 1:15 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Monta's Stats from the last 5 games
22.2 points on 54% shooting
6 rebounds
3.8 assists
2.4 steals
1 block
1.6 turnovers

He's also shooting 78% from the charity stripe.  
Not MVP level yet, but definitely very solid.

by MikeJ11 on Dec 5, 2007 1:15 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Hmmm....
Harrington is an athletic big man.  He can guard the larger guys and hit the outside jumper forcing said larger guys into going outside in a man on man defense.  His only downfall is that although he can score and play good D, his boards are lacking big time.  I seriously doubt we could get an all around big man for Monta, Al, and any other combo without forfieting serious talent.  I mean c'mon; Baron may be a play maker, but there is no way he could carry a team of untalented individuals.

OZ, everything you said was what I wanted.  You answered the questions that I was too lazy to spend a lot of time researching.  But even after everything you said, I disagree.

Any team that has a franchise player that we want would have to either:
A.  Believe that Al and Monta, (and whoever else), were better than their player that they had.  Or:
B.  We pull off a Pacers caliber trade giving 2 seemingly incredible talented yet not incredible players for 1 superstar or up and coming superstar.

Sure Telfair may turn out to be a great player, but he's averaging 10pts per game and is the same age as Monta.  
Monta has more speed than almost anyone, (including Telfair),  in the league, (I think he's faster than Barbosa), and while he may not be Dwight Howard, he is still worth 6-7 million.  He will prove that his size and speed can be an advantage on both sides of the court.  Nellie runs small to be faster.  Doesn't that make Ellis perfect?

Keep Monta Movement.

by danielholl on Dec 5, 2007 2:03 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

what?
I'm totally confused. Did you think I was advocating a trade of Harrington + Ellis for Mystery Big Man X?

All I said was that we had athletic big men already- Harrington, Wright, Biedrins, POB, even Mbenga and Croshere are quicker and more mobile than other players of equivalent size.

As for Telfair, he won't sniff half of what Ellis is looking for and is a more natural PG (at least as far as I can gather).

I have never said that Ellis isn't talented- just not worth the money. Given that keeping him, Barnes, and Biedrins will use up every last ounce of cap space we have and lock our roster in for the next half decade, I am extremely hesitant to make such a commitment.

If we can secure a young talent(telfair is an good example, but only an example) that makes less money (which he will) and brings true PG skills to give Baron rest, all while retaining some semblance of flexibility, then I cannot see how we do not go that route.

If you are going to bump into the luxury tax, it should be for Kevin Garnett- otherwise, you're better off hedging your bets and giving yourself some breathing space.

We have a first round pick with which to find a scoring guard, and this draft (like virtually all drafts) happen to have small scoring guards in it.

24 > 23

WE NEED A BACKUP POINT GUARD

AIM: Jetforze

by OptionZero on Dec 5, 2007 2:41 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

First round picks
Terrance Williams
Stats
Profile

Jamont Gordon
Stats
Profile

Either would be a nice fit in our backcourt in the scoring role that Ellis occupies. Both have multiple years in college to work out some kinks so there's less "polishing" to do- as first round picks they are also on a much more favorable rookie salary scale for four more years at least.

Ellis is playing well, but if we're to maximize our assets, we gotta think long and hard about paying Ellis.

24 > 23

WE NEED A BACKUP POINT GUARD

AIM: Jetforze

by OptionZero on Dec 5, 2007 2:48 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

ljakfjkl
Well, originally I was thinking more of an athletic big man who would devour boards for us in case we did trade Monta. But as OZ has emphasized, we need a true backup point guard to spell BD even more so. If Kaz was still starting and succeeding, I'd be more inclined to pull the trigger on a trade while Monta's value is this high. We can't groom Belinelli into a PG either. Could we possibly get Jose Calderon?

by crazyray on Dec 5, 2007 4:04 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Monta for David Lee
New York would love Monta as much and more than we do.  They have an aging backcourt.  I would trade Monta in a "New York Minute" for David Lee.  And the numbers work.

We don't know Monta's upside but his stock is high right now.  Have Mully call Isiah before he is run out of town.

You call me ancient, I say "oldguysrule"

by commish on Dec 5, 2007 4:07 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

David Lee
Is going to be off limits.  Their backcourt is not that old.  NY is not going to trade away their only young, cheap player for somebody who is going to ask for a big contract.  It won't work.

I for one think Monta is going to learn to handle pressure situations, and take his game to the next level.  I'm excited that he seems to have learned to crash the boards and use his speed/hops to grab those loose ball rebounds that come off our 3pters.

If you're looking to trade Monta, you have to look at what we need and find somebody that fits.  Without Monta:

With our team's style, we can't pick up just anybody.  We want tall, athletic 2/3/4s who can hit 3s and be pretty interchangable.  We have 7 of those.

At the 5 spot we've got Beans, DJ, Austin (can play some 4), PoB, and Kosta.  Sometimes we play none of these guys and just use Al.

I don't see much of anything other than a backup PG, and maybe some depth.  And we got rid of most of the bad contracts.

Memphis has a bunch of young ones.  Could we get Conley straight up?

Sactown just lost Martin for a while, you want to try to Monta, MP, and Hudson for Udrih,Artest (only works after the 15th)?

by Dubs fan in Boston on Dec 5, 2007 12:04 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

D'oh
Rather:

Monta,MP,Hudson,PoB

for

Udrih,Artest

We'd upgrade our backup PG and pick up another great on ball defender to compliment Jack.

We'd lose a little depth on the wing, and we'd lose Monta.

I still don't see the Kings going for it... it was the best I could come up with.

by Dubs fan in Boston on Dec 5, 2007 12:10 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Artest
Hudson has no trade value. At all.

Ellis/MP/POB won't even get you Artest alone, much less Artest + Udrih.

Ellis needs an extension; Pietrus is gonna walk, and POB is a FA as well. They're basically giving artest/udrih away for nothing- or worse, giving Artest/Urdih away so they have to spend even more money on Ellis.

As the Kings guy that came here said, they aren't gonna do that. I would imagine Miami would likely send picks and expirings, possibly even eating a Kenny Thomas contract.

We would need to take back Shareef to make the deal, me thinks.

24 > 23

WE NEED A BACKUP POINT GUARD

AIM: Jetforze

by OptionZero on Dec 5, 2007 1:12 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

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