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TNT's Kenny Smith on the Warriors 3/29

What's this? A national TV personality offering useful insight on the Warriors? Perhaps...

Star-divide

Normally when the Warriors are on national TV, we all know someone's gonna screw up, whether it's mispronouncing a name, mixing up positions, or generally mailing in the evening with lip service about playoff futility.

Kenny "The Jet Smith", however, remarked (in essence)

The Warriors can run... The Warriors can score... The Warriors can play like the Suns...

...but only sometimes. The W's just hasn't yet learned how to impose this style of play on an opponent.

Wins  over Dallas (twice), Detroit (twice) and the Suns (tonight) proved that when its all clicking, it's all good. It pains me to say it, but thats only the beginning.

When the Suns came into the league, I dismissed them as a novelty. I laughed at Nash (and still do) as MVP, I mocked Amare as the Next Coming.

You know what though? You can't laugh and mock for three years- which is how long they've been able to run and gun.

Sure, they haven't won any rings yet, but the regular season success can't be ignored.

The Suns do exactly what Kenny Smith said: they impose their style of play on just about everyone.

If the Suns are doing some serious imposing,
the Warriors have to do better than sorta suggest half heartedly...hey, you wanna run? c'mon! run wiht us! Please? Pretty please! THAT is not gonna cut it.

What's missing? Well, let's look at how the Suns "impose their style" on other teams like Mr. Smith said.

  1. Fouls. The Suns trade buckets for pace, rhythm, and lack of foul trouble. We hack, give up FT's, slow the game down, and are forced to sit our good players (biedrins, jackson, baron). Without fouls, the game speeds up, there are more possessions, the points rack up, and you end up playing Suns basketball
  2. Spacing, Passing, Turnovers. We stand still, the Suns move. We make poor passes, the Suns make lots of good ones, especially in the paint. We have lazy ball handling, the Suns attack off the dribble from everywhere. Defenses don't want to switch or rotate. Mediocre teams rotate/switch once. Good teams rotate/switch twice. Great teams will rotate/switch as many times as it takes in a possession. The Suns force defenses to do it 3-4 times by moving and cutting and swinging the ball around endlessly, WITHOUT turning it over.
  3. 3 Point Shooting. The Suns create good 3 point looks for good 3 point shooters (Arguably, the best collection of gunners). We sometimes create good looks for occasionally streaky shooters. The funny thing is, once the other team hits a few, you usually feel the need to answer back with some of your own. Trading 3 for 2 repeatedly has some sort of psychological effect on NBA players. The Suns take 3's and make 3's better than anyone, and when they do it all game, opponents get sucked into trying to match them...and fail at it usually.
Let me talk a bit about why the Warriors haven't quite done these things yet:

1. FOULS
The Suns don't foul. This is a conscious decision by D'Antoni and the Suns. They will play defense, they will run at you, they will trap, they will switch, they will make you react quickly and often, but if push comes to shove...you can have the bucket.

Hey, why not? The Suns know that in the long run, they can put forth a bigger, longer offensive explosion than any other team can. Pace and rhythm matter, and they know that they are committed to and accustomed to a fast pace and high scores, so they'll let the opponent get a bucket or to.

The way I see it, it's like a crack dealer offering free samples. Sure the first bit is cool, you feel good, but after a while, you're hooked, and then it's all over in a barrage of 3's and backdoor layups and Amare jams.

The Warriors want to play the scramble defense, but whether its ego or stupidity or inexperience, they will make that ill-timed hack, that lazy reach-in, something to draw the whistle.

As a result, the game slows down, opponents set their halfcourt defense, the free throw disparaty grows, all rhythm and pace, even for a short time are gone, and then we lose.

Without a true backup to Biedrins (and a degree, S-Jax), the fouls have the double negative of robbing us of minutes from valuable players because they have to sit with foul trouble.

Foul less, even if it means giving up buckets.

2. SPACING AND PASSING
Baron is incredibly efficient (AST/TO wise usually), he'll make every pass and then some, and  dribbles like the ball is a part of his body.

Stephen Jackson has an excellent handle  and vision but occasionally gets careless dribbling and passing

J-Rich is much improved but will occassionally still take it into trouble without a plan.

Pretty much every one else, I wouldn't trust bringing the ball up the court. Ellis is way too lazy, he dribbles with his head down and passes without looking (Telegraphing sometimes even); Pietrus has the basketball IQ of an 8th grader; Barnes, for a vet, makes stupid mistakes, Harrington is good for a 4, but thats about it.

In contrast, Bell, Barbosa, Nash, Marion, Diaw, nearly all the Suns top guys can handle the ball and make the pass. Their spacing is top notch, they never stand around on offense.

Watch our fourth quarter execution and you'll notice we get stagnant VERY frequently. For some reason, Nelson lets Ellis bring the ball up in critical moments, and turnovers result. Players don't know where they should be in certain sets, leaving Baron or Nellie screaming at the team to get into position.

If you want to run and gun and play small ball, the ball has to hop around and players have to move. You can't give away possessions without even getting a shot off. If you're smaller than your opponent, you better be able to get by him, but we end up traveling or making weak passes.

It doesn't matter how much faster we are if we aren't moving...so get off your ass and cut to the basket or an open area. At worst, draw a defender away from ballside.

Those stupid mistakes must be cutout.

3. THREE POINT SHOOTING
You can do two things: shoot fewer 3's, or get better shooters.

Ellis should pull a Tony Parker and give up the 3.  Off the dribble at the elbow extended he's damn near perfect. From the arc, he's atrocious. Do the math.

Richardson and Jackson are incredibly hot and cold, but when they're cold, they keep shooting! Get into the block or attack off the dribble if u miss a 3. Taking 2, 3 jumpers in a row kills offensive flow, especially if they're from deep and lead to runouts for the other team.

Barnes and Pietrus are also streaky, but the problem is they can't do much else offensively. One reason why we're so reliant on the 3 is because these guys are ( or rather, were) our primary bench guys (Starters, for a long time even). Pietrus has stepped over that sideline more times than I can count, Barnes goes 1-on-3 in the paint. I expect the W's to let both guys walk this offseason and let Azubiuke and Powell, two guys who can do more offensively pick up the bench minutes.

Even Baron takes too many 3's, and we all know that. He's not shooting it well enough to shoot it this often.

When you bring Barbosa and Jones off the bench to complement Nash, Bell, and Marion, you're going to make a shitload of 3's...and they do. That feeds in turn extends the defense and helps their spacing and movement become even more deadly.

Nelson said he'd punish players that shot a 3 after 2 misses. This policy needs to be reinstated and drilled into our guys this offseason. We're not good enough to be this gung-ho from the arc.

I'm not against the 3, it's almost essential to shoot and make some with this style of play, or else other teams will pack in a zone and sit in the paint all day. 3's force defenses to extend, allowing more room to cut, and they punish teams that double team our myriad of post-up options. You can't them out, but you can use them more opportunistically.

Conclusion:
Kenny the Jet Smith is right this time. We can't impose our will on people yet because we aren't disciplined in this style of play. It seems like Nelliebell/Suns ball is just random offense, but it's not. There are specific things a team must work on to play lthis style.

The Suns have proven a team can win running up and down the court, and i do believe this core of Warriors players can win playing this style, but it's going to take at least the offseason of work to sort out the kinks.

It takes a total commitment to running to FORCE other teams to play this style of basketball.

This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!

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hmmm
I'm going to have to disagree with you about the best gunner line-up. I honestly think the Warriors have the best gunner lineup and I'm not being a homer, I swear. Everyone but Biedrins can shoot the 3, and will. On Phx, Diaw and Amare dont really shoot the three, they play on the low block. If Phx had our roster... they would be unstoppable with their system.

And the reason why I think Nellie is forcing Ellis to bring up the ball in crunch time, is because he is force-feeding Monta point guard experience willingly, at the expense of game; to develop Monta for the future. I totally disagree with Nellie's mindset on this one. Monta has plenty of time to learn and shouldnt be thrown into the deep end.

by ZombieWarrior on Mar 30, 2007 12:50 AM PDT reply actions  

disagree
 The Warriors have the best collection of gunners if the whole team is hot, just like we witnessed during the first half of tonight's game. But after everyone cools down, beyond Jrich and maybe Ellis, no one has really shown the ability to consistently hit a jump shot.

 I give Harrington some props though, he has been hitting a lot of his shots since the starting line up got healthy.

 I do agree that almost everyone on the roster has shown the ability to shoot the 3. For better and for worse.

by faybo on Mar 30, 2007 1:19 AM PDT up reply actions  

You are being a homer
Depends on what you mena by "can shoot the 3"

Allowed to to shoot the 3 maybe?  Just because Nelson lets the whole team jack them up doesn't mean that they are better gunners

Check out the Warriros 3 point perecentages against the Suns and get back to us

Nash Barbosa and Bell are all well over 40% shooters from 3

Baron and Ellis are sub 30%

Big difference

by Zig on Mar 30, 2007 9:35 AM PDT up reply actions  

OptionZero
Fantastic, well though-out post. I agree with most of it. Agree or disagree, y'all gotta give love to someone who puts that much thought into a diary.
About D'Antoni's no foul policy - it is very interesting but it really goes against what these players have been taught their whole lives, and really goes against common sense - even a 95% FT shooter will always make less from the line than from layups (Of course, you'd rather give up 2 points than get in foul trouble if you're an important player to your team's success however). And I've never heard of any other coach advocating D'Antoni's theory of not fouling to keep the pace of the game up, so not sure if we can really expect the Dubs to pick up this theory (maybe if the Suns win a title we'll try it...)
IMO the biggest reason the Suns can win with their style of play is that they are just incredible outside shooters. They lead the league in 3PT% at .399, and it's not even close, with Dallas 2nd at .387. Warriors rank 18th in percentage. To me, this is the #1 reason why the Warriors aren't as good as the Suns, which I guess is the main thing I disagree with in your post since you seem to rank the shooting as important as not fouling and spacing/passing.
Warriors actually lead the league in pace in terms of numbers of possessions per game - not really sure what Kenny Smith means by imposing their will. Really, the Suns play more half-court ball than us, they are just far more efficient with their possessions.
More Hardware Coming!

by gsw4life on Mar 30, 2007 1:50 AM PDT reply actions  

Great diary, OZ
I agree nearly 100%. Nellie's first task was to give the team an identity and personality. The second was to determine which players fit the identity and which didn't. Now the key is, as you say, imposing our new identity on other teams. Easier said than done, of course ... and I guess I think we're still one kickass rebounder and one deadeye shooter from being able to that consistently.

More to say, but it's past midnight here in Tokyo and I'm too sleepy (!) to think clearly. In the meantime, I'd be remiss if I didn't ask: are you the legendary "Option Zero" from the Giants' message boards? Don't worry: I agree with most of your baseball takes, too. I'm just curious...

by Sleepy Freud on Mar 30, 2007 7:10 AM PDT reply actions  

I like you post to
and agree the Warriors have eliminate stupid fouls and get slightly more selective with their shooting

by Zig on Mar 30, 2007 9:37 AM PDT reply actions  

the jet lost me when.....
he was calling Harrington a post player......

anyway, does someone have a link of that GQ article years back when they named the "city" jersey the best jersey ever?

Charles was just all over our unis calling it ugly, he probably forgot he used to wear Rocket pinstripes and sixers garb with stars all over....

by VonteegoCummings on Mar 30, 2007 10:15 AM PDT reply actions  

Yeah
I think Kenny called Harrington, JRich and Monta all post players.

by nautica on Mar 30, 2007 10:43 AM PDT reply actions  

lol
I was listening to him and when he called monta and al post players, I turned off the tv and looked for internet porn. Best way to savor a warriors win

by VonteegoCummings on Mar 30, 2007 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

Great Post
Very well done. you really nailed the difference between the Dubs and the Suns(better than Kenny btw). I would really like to see some of those things happen for us. I just hope we can learn to play our scrambling defense without fouling. I would hate to lose that intensity for the sake of keeping the game flowing.

Also on the subject of 3pt shooting, I just have to give Al props. I always kinda expected his % to drop off after a while but he is still hanging around the top five in the league. this is one guy who has proven that he is not streaky. He's legit.

by olympicmike on Mar 30, 2007 12:18 PM PDT reply actions  

Pace and 3 Point Shooting
When was the last time the Suns had a game like the San Antonio debacle? I can't really recall any 30 point losses.

Now certainly, San Antonio is the best team in the league (a separate discussion, but in short, the Spurs play their starters soemthing like 35 MPG or less and STILL have a top 3 record, the Suns and Dallas are trying much harder to be as good as they are; check out John Hollinger's discussions on the topic on ESPN).

But the Warriors don't sustain the pace throughout the game. Even the Lakers, not a great team by any stretch (simply pretty good) were able to stuff us early in the game and in the later stages of the 4th.

To me, imposing our style means we lure teams into playing it the whole game, and when the pace slows its because we want it do, not when the other team is able to force us to get perimeter.

As for 3 point shooting, there's little comparison. Having guys that shoot the 3 is not the same as having guys that shoot the 3 well.

The Suns have 3 guys above 40% from the arc: Nash (47%), Bell (41%), and Barbosa (42%). Among these 3, it virtually doesn't matter who's chucking away, it's has a fair chance of going in and they arne't hurting the team by shooting away.
Jones is at 37%
Marion is at 33%

The Warriors have one player above 40%: Harrington, who's only been with us half the season, at 43%. Unfortunately, he's the power forward, which means if he's shooting the 3, there probably isn't going to be anyone in the paint.

Richardson and Davis take the most 3's on our team and they are in the low 30's. Ditto for Jackson and early on, Dunleavy (horray).
Barnes is still ok, Pietrus is too, but like I said, they don't offer any other offensive skills so they don't really help make the offense click.

As I said, i think Azubiuke will help as the bench 2/3 next because he's a better basketball player overall. Powell will not be shooting 3's when he plays the 4 (Rather than Pietrus/Barnes when we were injured).

In the draft, I anticipate a power forward or backup 3 of some sort that is not reliant on the perimeter game.

by OptionZero @ Golden State Of Mind on Mar 30, 2007 12:55 PM PDT reply actions  

i love how kenny
was giving us props, but did anyone else hear Kerr say in the 1st half that the warriors were playing like the the best team on earth? haha this made me laugh even though at the time it was true, but didnt Steve use to hate on the dubs?

by ilubthedubs on Mar 30, 2007 2:02 PM PDT reply actions  

there
was a video clip a couple days ago on yahoo where steve said the warriors had the best chance of making the playoffs

by jngai on Mar 30, 2007 2:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

I AGREE ALMOST 100%
w/ this diary!  The W's facts are pretty straight on, but you're making the SUNS look like the ultimate team!  Okay, if you're only giving them so much props for their style of play, then I guess!  But since when did BELL start shooting lights out from downtown?  And w/ the ugliest shot in the league, MARION's not always going to be consistent, except for the amount of energy he delivers!  And NASH...NASH is like STOCKTON of back in the days, only faster!  If you pay close attention though, he palms the ball all the time, just like STOCKTON, but he's never called for it!  But that's the reason why he can deliver the ball at any time!

I know the W's have their faults, but the SUNS aren't perfect either!

GO WARRIORS!!!

"If you build around them...they will come!"

by scottiepimppen on Mar 30, 2007 3:38 PM PDT reply actions  

The best team? No, but....
If you'll read the diary again, you'll notice I credited the Spurs as the best team, and I stand by it.

The Suns, however, are the best team at playing this style of basketball, and I assume everyone would agree with that assessment for the time being. Will we be better? Maybe, but not this season. We'll see how it pans out in the future, and I am optimistic.

Barbosa and Marion have atrocious shooting forms, but they work and have worked for sometime now.

Nash carries the ball, but so does Baron and nearly every NBA perimeter player. Ellis,  Parker, everyone. The NBA can't call it everytime without increasing the number of whistles 10 fold, so now they only penalize players when they do it too slowly or too obviously.

My biggest grip is Amare Stoudamire- he has pretty poor footwork last time I checked, and he gets away with lowering the elbow alot. I'm a big Tim Duncan fan, so I favor guys who are fundamentally sound in the block and play more traditionally. Amare looks real good because shooters space the floor and Nash feeds it to him perfectly.

Dwight Howard is no less athletic than Amare. On a slow paced, conservative team like the Magic, Amare would have to be the sort of rebounder Howard is to get points, because he wouldn't have a system in place to get him good looks. And if you put  Howard on the Suns, you'd have Amare ReDux.

by OptionZero @ Golden State Of Mind on Mar 30, 2007 5:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think this is a great post...
you're right on top of it... now in order for the Warriors to improve... i truly think that we need to work on fundamentals.  Sometimes it really looks like we're just running pick-up games with the amount of one handed passes and careless turnovers that we have.  Things such as dribbling seem to be a concern... and we'd really benefit from a focus on fundamentals... as it would cut down on the mistakes and essentially make our team more consistent.  

by mightymadskillz on Mar 30, 2007 7:13 PM PDT reply actions  

Great post
Nice insight into the difference between the two teams. It would be interesting to see if Nellie did or did not influence Mike D'Antoni's run and gun style. I know D'Antoni's coaching experience in Europe had a lot to do with it, but how much did Nellie influence him?

In addition to what you said, I think a big difference between the two teams is the frontcourt. Amare, Marion, and Diaw is an athletic and skilled set of players. The Warriors did run by the Suns in the last game, but I can't see that happening often. The Suns would adjust and in the long run their bigger, stronger and more athletic front court would win out.

by Fantasy Junkie on Mar 31, 2007 11:06 AM PDT reply actions  

Marion: The Difference
I've always thought Marion was the reason the Suns "work".

He defends every position, rebounds, has enough offensive ability by himself (he's not great in isolation compared his 'mates), blocks shots, and gets steals. Oh, and he isn't a liability from the arc (I stop short of saying he's "good" from the arc).

Marion means they can play Amare as a slightly undersized center that doesn't always defend, and also adds a second shotblocker to help erase the hordes of penetrating guards that Nash allows.

He's basically the Swiss Army Knife of the Suns, a small forward that guards 4's and 2's man-up, and still provides help defense all over the court. Somehow, he finds the time to be a ESPN Top 10 Play Waiting To Happen.

Jackson's versatility is nice, but he doens't board and he doesn't block shots. Harrington's D is improving, but he doesn't quite have the Marion athleticism to freakishly cover for all his teammates. Neither dominates offensively consistently enough to make up for the boards, either.

So Nash should have a footnote inscribed on his MVP trophies: Thanks, Shawn.

by OptionZero @ Golden State Of Mind on Mar 31, 2007 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

Agreed
I think Marion is incredibly under-appreciated and undervalued. I think he's the real MVP of that team because he actually plays both sides of the floor. Nash might be the worst defender in the league and Amare doesn't really impress me at the defensive end (of course he's a BEAST on offense though).

Also, great diary man. This is one of the best diaries I've ever seen come from the mighty GSoM community. You gotta drop science in diaries more often!

by Atma Brother ONE on Apr 1, 2007 1:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

Marion
While I agree on Marions play, and the suns would not be the same without him
he has been doing this for most of his career. but the team didnt have near the success before Nash and D'antoni came aboard. with Kidd they where a low seed play-off team, with marbury (the self-proclaimed best point gaurd in the NBA)they where even worse. passing and spacing is the key as you said, they shoot alot of threes but there is usually a few quick passes to open up the shooter first which the W's dont seem to do as often or as well

by azw on Apr 1, 2007 1:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

Imposing
I think the fact that we are still fairly new to this run and gun offense is the reason behind the passiveness at the beginning of games. I think once we become completely understanding of how the run and gun game works, we will begin to force it upon the other team to either adjust or run with them. As of now, we only run and gun when there is opportunity, instead of just shoving it down the opponenets throats all the time like the Suns do.

by dandydaniel on Mar 31, 2007 2:13 PM PDT reply actions  

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