The Warriors Reloaded: Bring The Matrix to the Bay?

by Atma Brother ONE on Sep 26, 2007 9:58 AM PDT in NBA Comment 21 comments

The biggest news item in the hoops world today is Shawn Marion's declaration that it's time for him to move on from the Phoenix Suns. The all-world fantasy stats machine is rumored to be part of a blockbuster deal with the LA Lakers for injury prone, but uber-talented big man Lamar Odom.

I have no idea why two division rivals who have faced each other for two straight years in the Western Conference Playoffs would be interested in taking even the slightest chance of improving the other team's roster at the expense of their own. But putting aside the fact that the Suns and Lakers are Pacific Division foes, from a hoops standpoint a Marion-Odom swap actually makes a lot of sense. Marion would be a better fit alongside Kobe "field goal attempt" Bryant than Odom because he doesn't need the ball in his hands to make a huge impact. You can't watch a Suns game without some announcer declaring that "the Suns don't run any plays for Marion" as if it's some groundbreaking, unknown news item at least once or twice. With his impressive ball handling abilities Odom could take some pressure of Nash, unlike Marion who I can't say I've ever witnessed take more than 3 dribbles in a row. Still, I'd be pretty surprised if a blockbuster deal between the Lakers and Suns actually materialized simply because Lakers' GM Mitch Kupchak only rates slightly below TWolves GM Kevin McHale in the cluelessness department.

Marion's a better actor than Keanu Reeves too.
[UltimateNBA.com]

I can't remember seeing or hearing either Nellie or Mullin show any interest or praise Marion's game, but I'd love to see The Matrix finishing Boom Dizzle alley-oops at the Roaracle Arena and shutting down top notch scorers. This versatile forward and iron-man is good for nearly 20 ppg, 10 rpb, 2 thefts, and 1.5 swats a game (the numbers don't lie!). If you've ever played fantasy hoops you're probably used to seeing him get picked several rounds before his more heralded teammates who couldn't defend Adonal Foyle if he had one hand tied behind his back, Steve Nash and Amare Stoudemire. With Marion's speed, athleticism, craftiness, uncanny finishing ability, and unselfishness to guard the oppositions best player who wouldn't want him in a Warrior jersey? To read up on Marion definitely check out GSoM friend Henry Abbott's Marion compilation Cooked by the Sun: Meet Shawn Marion over at ESPN's TrueHoop and in particular The Marion Paradox from The Rising Suns.

Make the jump to see your daily armchair GM trade proposal that'll never happen!

One way the Warriors could bring the Matrix to the Bay is by shipping Monta Ellis, Al Harrington, Stephane Lasme, and Patrick O'Bryant to the Suns for Marion. (Did you honestly think this perennial All-Star with a few years still left in his prime would come cheap?) Then in part B of the deal use the $10 million trade exception garnered from the JRich deal to pick up the nearly $4 million a year Marcus Banks (correct me in the comments if this 2 step trade process doesn't work under the NBA's cryptic CBA rules). The Warriors would be able to trot out a roster that would look something like this:

PG: Baron Davis/ Marcus Banks/ Troy Hudson
SG: Kelenna Azubuike/ Marco Belinelli/ Troy Hudson
SF: Stephen Jackson/ Matt Barnes/ Kelenna Azubuike
PF: Shawn Marion/ Matt Barnes/ Brandan Wright
C: Andris Biedrins/ Shawn Marion/ Brandan Wright

* Maybe even that Pietrus fellow will be along for the 2k7-2k8 ride!

The Suns could avoid making a deal with the devil (the Lakers) and arguably in Monta and Al net a package that makes them deeper and stronger than any Odom deal. Also the luxury tax conscious Suns would be able to cut free agent bust Marcus Banks from their payroll. Who knows? Maybe Nellie can make Marcus worth the bank.

The Warriors still wouldn't be able to bang with the likes of the Carlos Boozers and Tim Duncans of the Wild, Wild, West, but a frontline of Jax-Matrix-Andris is still an impressive defensive trio. Probably the biggest loss from the JRich trade was Jason's great finishing ability in the transition game and rebounding. Marion immediately fills both those losses and actually helps turn the Warriors into a solid rebounding team. It'd be fun to see how Biedrins fares down low over the course of an entire season with a rebounding and defensive force to pair up with too. The financials are obviously complicated (if you thought dealing with one high priced star in Baron Davis during contract negotiations made for nervous times, imagine having 2 players of that caliber and contract).

Does bringing the Matrix to the Bay make sense? What type of deals can you put together that make sense for both the Warriors and Suns? (Use ESPN's Trade Machine)

Also see OptionZero's diary Rumor: Shawn Marion (Update: to LA for Odom?)

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Sounds good, but doesn't check out

Atma, you forgot to run your trade through the checker you linked to--not enough outgoing salary from the Dubs. Now, if we replaced Lasme with Wright in the trade, it works financially, and probably makes the deal a bit more tempting for Phoenix. Sounds good to me, though my only worry is that an extension might be tied into the deal.

by ffgolden on Sep 26, 2007 10:20 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

2 step trade

As one trade it doesn't work, but if you do it in separate parts it works- meaning the Banks for the $10 million exception after the bulk of the trade in part A.

But maybe I'm wrong about how to use the exception?

by Atma Brother ONE on Sep 26, 2007 10:26 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Whoops, posted response below

by ffgolden on Sep 26, 2007 10:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Too much

Harrington, Monta, and Wright?

I love Marion and he'd obviously be an amazing fit in Nellieball, for all the reasons listed.

At the same time (reposting some from OZ's diary)...

He's 29, plays a game that's heavily reliant on physical explosiveness, and showed signs of very slight decline last year (in scoring, reb rate, and PER).
He isn't a PG or a big man.
He's acting like a little bitch. Seriously, what's all the bellyaching about? He's playing in the ideal system for him, a great hoops town, one of 2 or 3 teams with a legit title shot, with a fantastic coach and two stars who complement his game perfectly. This isn't Kirilenko, who has (presumably) been humiliated by his coach and made to play a style and position unsuited to his strengths. Look how calmly and quietly BD's dealing with his extension negotiation, and compare that to Marion's adolescent whining.

Love Marion as a player, but if you consider his age, position, and evident lack of maturity, there's no way he's worth the 3/$60M extension he's apparently seeking. Straight up, I'd probably rather have Baron, even given the health risks. Baron at 3/$40M v. Marion at 3/$60M? No brainer.

Now if we could ink them both for 3/$80-90M total, that could be intriguing...

by Sleepy Freud on Sep 26, 2007 10:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Flooding this diary with posts!

Slow hot day at work, what can I say.

Sleepy, agree with everything you said about Marion. His bitching is tedious and not really explainable, and while nobody's ever claimed he's a lockerroom cancer, he also doesn't quite sound like the happy-go-lucky teammate that Harrington apparently is.

At the same time, even if Wright goes out in the trade, this team looks pretty good:

PG: Baron/Banks/Hudson
SG: Jax/Belinelli/Az
SF: Barnes/Pietrus
PF: Marion/Lasme/Croshere
C: Biedrins/Perovic

Is that better than our current lineup? I'd argue yes, though I don't know how much so.

by ffgolden on Sep 26, 2007 10:47 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Marion's numbers

While it's unlikely that he's still getting better, I don't think there's signs that Marion is yet on the decline. Some (probably all) of the decline in rebound rate may be related to the return of Stoudemire and normal statistical variation. His rate was closer to what it was 3 years ago (and still higher than it was prior to that). That likely explains the change in scoring as well. Since PER is heavily influenced by scoring such that simply taking more shots even if you're doing so at relatively inefficient rate can raise your PER, simply sharing the ball more with Stoudemire will make Shawn's PER decline. PER is a reasonable rough guide, but it's flawed. I do not believe PER is an accurate enough measure to differentiate between his production for most of his career, which has been remarkably very good.

That said, he's not going to get better and the concern that a guy in an ideal position to thrive, a guy making a ridiculous sum of money already, should be complaining about money. I'd like to put personality behind it but it bugs me to no end that anyone getting $17million annually can be concerned that he's underpaid. Perhaps it won't ever effect his on court performance, which, barring injuries that he's never had, will probably be superb for another 3 or 4 seasons, but it certainly won't endear him to fans.

If cap numbers can work, I'd still give up Harrington, Monta and Wright for him. I don't think highly of Harrington, who is a pretty average player and average players are replaceable. Monta is a good player, but unless he's a point guard, I see his limitations preventing him from ever radically increasing a team's win total. Wright is still an unknown and it's very, very unlikely that his performance will exceed that of Marion's since it's very, very, very unlikely that any player's performance will exceed what Marion has done.

by jae on Sep 26, 2007 10:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Underpaid complaints

From talking to Suns fans, Marion's complaint seems to be the uncertainty of the future, rather than an actual dollar amount. In such a case, he might be placated with a lower annual salary but more guaranteed years.

Stepping back a bit, IMO Marion is the glue that holds the Suns together. Without him, they have lots of really shiny pieces (Nash, Barbosa, Bell, Amare), but they only work because he rebounds so well for a SF and defends every position competently. He was guarding Tony Parker for a while!

Questions? Complaints?

(AIM: JetForze; email: Jon.d.ma@gmail.com)

by OptionZero on Sep 26, 2007 11:01 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

The fact that he's complaining

and demanding to be traded from a team expected to be on the very short list of championship contenders really worries me.

by BingBluNT on Sep 26, 2007 4:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

"He's acting like a little bitch"

AMEN MAN! no way i'd let BD go - he's the mechanic; Marion, as uber as he is, is just a tool

I do hope he goes to play with headstrong Kobe; I smell the undercurrent of disaster all over that for some reason; kind of like NY's, "Hey! Let's put Franchise and Starbury together... we'll be unstoppable!"

by Anomaly on Sep 26, 2007 11:40 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

What makes Marion tick

He's acting like a little bitch. Seriously, what's all the bellyaching about? He's playing in the ideal system for him, a great hoops town, one of 2 or 3 teams with a legit title shot, with a fantastic coach and two stars who complement his game perfectly. This isn't Kirilenko, who has (presumably) been humiliated by his coach and made to play a style and position unsuited to his strengths. Look how calmly and quietly BD's dealing with his extension negotiation, and compare that to Marion's adolescent whining.

There's an explanation for this. I read an awesome article about the Suns last year by Jack McCallum at SI.com. I think it was an exerpt from his book "7 seconds" or something to that effect. It was his account of spending time on the phoenix suns bench. If any of you guys can find it let me know. It was a good read. Anyways to summarize this article about Shawn Marion, the guy has an incredibly huge ego and has come to resent the fact that he's the 3rd wheel on the Sun's squad when his production has been the only consistent thing even before Nash and STAT. He has no problems being 2nd to Nash but he believes that he has been more valuable to the team then STAT has, which if you think about games played, is very valid. Apparently he gets pissed when people don't pay him lip service. D'Antoni when he does interviews has to constantly remind himself to give verbal respect to Marion. It's not that he's a bad guy really, it's more than he is very sensitive about the fact that he's basically percieved only as a role player when his stats and contributions show otherwise. Say what you want but Marion's statistical average is even more impressive when you consider the fact that the Suns don't really run any plays for him.

Based on that, you can see why he's so pissed. He produces without dominating the ball, boards incredibly well for his size, plays out of position, has essentially been the one constant on the Sun over the years, and yet is subject to constant trade rumors. He is flat out rejected for a contract extension, and basically given no respect by the media in general for the Sun's success.

by ThermoElectro on Sep 26, 2007 8:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Based on that

I think he's pulling a Horace Grant ala Bulls; but i guess all will reveal in time

Huge ego and sensitive. Interesting. Now I really hope he goes to LAL! It's perfect for US. If they lose games, Kobe and he will point fingers to the other; if they win, they'll eventually claim to be the 'factor' and self-implode just like Shaq/KB

by Anomaly on Sep 27, 2007 8:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not quite sure

I believe any trade with the exception can be for a single player only, and can't be combined with other trades. So we take on Banks' salary and they get the partial TPE for that much (or rounded to the nearest $2.5mil? I was never sure on that), rather than additional TPE money going toward trade #1. I could be wrong, I'm sure OZ or JAE can drop some knowledge.

But let's say for a sec that it doesn't work, and Wright is inserted in place of Lasme to make the figures match. Do you still do that deal? What if they also ask for a 1st rounder?

by ffgolden on Sep 26, 2007 10:35 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

TPE

Any TPE they get from a Banks trade cannot be then combined in anything else.

TPE's cannot be used WITH anything except picks and/or cash (that doesn't count for CBA salary matching purposes).

You can, however, take on more than one player with the TPE, as long as the salaries don't add up to more than $10M.

Questions? Complaints?

(AIM: JetForze; email: Jon.d.ma@gmail.com)

by OptionZero on Sep 26, 2007 10:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Numbers

I wonder if Marion would trade dollars for years?If his price fell to $15M and Baron's price fell to $13M...the possibilities are staggering.

I would love the guy, as he's historically been an ironman. His decline last year is attributed to the return of Amare Stoudamire and presences of Kurt Thomas and Boris Diaw.

All that said...it's the Suns and it's a division rival. I'm not holding my breath, despite the now-explicit trade demand.

on a separate note, Welcome Back Atma.

Questions? Complaints?

(AIM: JetForze; email: Jon.d.ma@gmail.com)

by OptionZero on Sep 26, 2007 10:37 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

If the Suns are dumb enough to trade him ...

... to the lakers for Odom, then, well, we should be able to get him for less than Monta+Wright+pieces.

How could you solve a key division rival's problems like that? It's insane.

by Ronaldinho on Sep 26, 2007 10:44 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

bingo

Lamar Odom = teh suck

by GameSix on Sep 26, 2007 1:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Steve Kerr Screws Us AGAIN

By repeatedly bashing us and then switching gears and randomly jumping on the Warriors bandwagon last year, Steve Kerr totally screwed with some of our minds and was the subject of many ANGRY diaries last season on GSOM. When he became a GM, I am sure we thought we were done with hearing his horrible commentating on TNT and Yahoo, and that the Kerr Headache was over.

Guess again my friends. Now, after trying to be Mr. Big Shot and throwing his highest paid players name out in multiple trade scenarios, particularly, the KG trade, he has pissed the guy off, and now may have to deal him to the LAKERS! They will be rejuvenated and that will end up hurting our chances of being a West playoff contender.

Darn you to heck Steve Kerr!!! You're a lousy GM, commentator, basketball player, and just plain suck.

If War brings peace Dubz wit' it den!

by gsdubz on Sep 26, 2007 10:53 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Suggestion

Just an idea, not bashing or being negative Atma.

Perhaps you could change the title to reflect the fact that Marion's officially asked for a trade? There is already a diary pertaining to the rumors about him, and I understand you want to bring up the possibility that the Warriors might have interest, but first and foremost you should state the facts in the headline so people don't think it's just an extension of the rumor diaries. I would say something like "REPORT: Marion DEMANDS TRADE! Warrior - bound?"

You know what I'm sayin?

If War brings peace Dubz wit' it den!

by gsdubz on Sep 26, 2007 10:56 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

wont happen

dream on

by djchuckdeez on Sep 26, 2007 12:38 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Worth looking into... next offseason

Phoenix simply won't trade Marion to the warriors. Any package we can offer them doesn't come close to improving their team as much as acquiring Marion does ours.

The only way we get him, in my opinion, is if we let Baron walk and sign Marion instead. And this only makes sense if Monta blows up this year like many are hoping/predicting. Monta would have to improve his handles and shooting so that he could run the point and also make defenders respect his outside shot.

Monta/True PG
Jackson/Belinelli
Harrington/Kazu!
Marion/Wright
Biedrins

*or start Belinelli at the 2, Jackson at the 3, and bring Harrington off the bench. Kazu becomes the backup off guard.

IF Monta improves and we can find a backup center who can protect the rim and rebound, thats a pretty darn good team. Good shooting. Good if not great defense, depending on Belinelli, Wright, and who we find to backup the Latvian.

But I don't expect Monta to improve that much over the next 8 months. And even if he does Marion may already be on another team with an extension....

Lastly, getting rid of your franchise players in successive years (jrich then baron) doesnt bode well for fan or player loyalty. If warriors management makes these moves it has to be convinced Monta, Belinelli, Marion, Wright, and Biedrins are out future, along with maybe one of Harrington/Jackson.

by BingBluNT on Sep 26, 2007 5:30 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs